76 years ago today, on August 5, 1945, the first atomic bomb used in war was dropped on Hiroshima, Japan (interviews, border)
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I posted this on August 7, 2020 in another Hiroshima thread
It got some unique reactions and it introduced me to some posters whose knowledge of history is impressive - maybe 1 or 2 persons.... which is rare around these parts.
Without further ado, a Sprawling_Homeowner [url="https://www.city-data.com/forum/58845959-post136.html"]re-run:
I remember that thread! I'll post my response to you below, but first . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprawling_Homeowner
Propaganda posters of the war can be easily found online.
[. . .]
But the Japanese were never depicted singly as Hirohito. The "***" was a slant-eyed, super-buck-toothed, subhuman creature designed to repulse, to confuse, and to evoke mockery.
I've seen plenty of WW2 propaganda posters, and for certain, they are . . . shall we say, politically incorrect. That's just the way it was, back then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paracord
That's what I thought. You're not saying anything. Just posting word salads and conjecture.
I ask you about the point you're making, and you don't say. You simply reference some survey about what "possibly" could have happened had we let the war continue an extra 5 or 6 months.
NO FACTS. Opinions.
I don't agree with Sprawling Homeowner's conclusions, but I'm going to take his side regarding the Strategic Bombing Survey. It was a massive effort, conducted by experts in the field, and produced a treasure trove of information about the last months of the war in massive detail. Their conclusions regarding how the war might have concluded absent the atomic bombings come as close to foretelling the future as it's possible to get, without actually foretelling the future.
And here's how I responded to his comment about the survey in the thread he referenced:
Quote:
China was embroiled in the war, officially, from July 1937 through August 1945, a period of 97 months. Estimates of civilian deaths vary wildly, but I'll use the the figure of 16 million that is reported in the World War II Database. Assuming these figures, this works out to an average of about 165,000 Chinese civilian deaths in each and every month of the war.
So, let's say that the Strategic Bombing Survey is correct, and Japan would have surrendered by November 1st, which is 2.5 months later than they did historically. Statistically speaking, this means that another 412,500 Chinese civilians would have been killed. Let us also consider that by early August, there were only four major Japanese cities left standing, they being Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Kokura, and Kyoto. Every other major city, and many smaller ones, had already been firebombed. If the war was still going, and we didn't use nuclear weapons, it beggars belief to assume that we wouldn't have targeted three of those remaining four cities. (We had specifically exempted Kyoto from attack due to its historical and cultural significance.) Thus, Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have been bombed anyway, and Kokura would have as well. It seems reasonable to assume that there would have been many civilian deaths, even if fewer than the atomic bombings produced.
So what good would it have done to grind them down until they surrendered in November? A lot more innocent people would have died; a similar number of Japanese civilians, and many more Chinese civilians. THIS is why we say that the atomic bombs ultimately saved more lives, including innocent civilian lives, than they cost.
Sometimes, there are no good choices. Just less-bad ones. This is one of those times.
To be fair, way too many Japanese soldiers did everything they could to reinforce such a view.
When the U.S. Army and the Royal Army sped towards Berlin, American and British troops painted certain words on their tanks. "Daisy," "Rosie," and other titles honoring girlfriends or wives were customary in Allied tanks.
The Soviet Army did the same, but the inscriptions were a bit more sinister.
Comrades of The Red Army, The German Women are Yours!
Subsequent survivors' testimonies state the Soviet Army in eastern Germany was essentially a mass of rapists who violated every female from ages 8 to 80.
Yet the U.S. Army was allied with the USSR during the war.
What the Soviets did to the German women is no rationalization to defend what Japanese troops did to Chinese civilians - but if cruel and barbaric behavior is the criteria to be used to create or to reinforce the view that the soldiers guilty thereof are subhuman, then the Japanese (and the Soviets) were hardly alone in this during that war.
When the U.S. Army and the Royal Army sped towards Berlin, American and British troops painted certain words on their tanks. "Daisy," "Rosie," and other titles honoring girlfriends or wives were customary in Allied tanks.
The Soviet Army did the same, but the inscriptions were a bit more sinister.
Comrades of The Red Army, The German Women are Yours!
Subsequent survivors' testimonies state the Soviet Army in eastern Germany was essentially a mass of rapists who violated every female from ages 8 to 80.
Yet the U.S. Army was allied with the USSR during the war.
What the Soviets did to the German women is no rationalization to defend what Japanese troops did to Chinese civilians - but if cruel and barbaric behavior is the criteria to be used to create or to reinforce the view that the soldiers guilty thereof are subhuman, then the Japanese (and the Soviets) were hardly alone in this during that war.
The Russians were in payback mode, the Japanese were in superior conqueror mode.
I won't take a dog in that fight but will note that I'd personally rather be raped than murdered.
It's ugly all-around and as such many did commit suicide.
The Russians were in payback mode, the Japanese were in superior conqueror mode.
I won't take a dog in that fight but will note that I'd personally rather be raped than murdered.
It's ugly all-around and as such many did commit suicide.
Well, the Soviets murdered tons of German civilians as well, and in creative ways which didn't involve firearms. This involved the use of blunt tools and barn doors.
It doesn't matter what mode whatever army was in. A bullet to the forehead kills regardless of why the person who shot the rifle shot it.
Oh, btw, did you know some U.S. troops misbehaved similarly towards women in occupied Japan and in liberated France? I wouldn't call them rats or subhuman, although some here think that describing the actions and attitudes of U.S. troops is disrespecting/dishonoring them.
And, high-ranking military officers of the time who lived the war disagree with you.
General Dwight Eisenhower. General Curtis Lemay. Admiral Chester Nimitz. Admiral Leahy. Even General Douglas MacArthur himself.
The Strategic Bombing Survey estimated that Japan would have surrendered on or about November 1st, absent the atomic bombs. But in the actual event, they surrendered on August 15th. Thus, by the survey's own estimate, the war was shortened by 2.5 months by using the atomic bombs.
Just listing names and saying they disagree with you is empty.
They lived then. They fought in the war. They were high-ranking military officers trained in war.
They knew something the other posters whom I've replied to tonight did, even though apparently some around here think that's all "opinion" and "conjecture." That's why I've been telling people to go study history. They talk thinking they know, when they need to study.
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