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Old 02-02-2013, 03:53 AM
 
Location: Hernando County, FL
8,489 posts, read 20,651,257 times
Reputation: 5397

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
JH Kunstler:


By rail when he can. He regrets the limited choices he faces, and so do I.
The existing restrictions do not detract from the power of his message. Not for me.
I notice you edited my post so as not to include the back hoe and big trucks he used to put in his garden.
My garden was bigger and all done by hand.

 
Old 02-02-2013, 04:01 AM
 
Location: Hernando County, FL
8,489 posts, read 20,651,257 times
Reputation: 5397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
5 years ago when I checked, about 300 people gave up citizenship - the numbers are increasing fast.

I reckon the incomes/wealth of the 1700 was probably more than the 700K odd coming in. If so, the net is making the country poorer.

Have you forgotten that many of those are coming across the border from a poorer southern neighbor? Many come, both legally and illegally, for the benefits they can pick up.
You continue to post completely fabricated statements. Many come to the U.S. to live and invest their money. Don't let the news stories of a few very wealthy people who renounced their citizenship lead you to believe that everyone leaving is uber wealthy.
 
Old 02-02-2013, 04:48 AM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 1,104,896 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike1306 View Post
You said savings not cost, my car cost $21000 8 years ago, gas and upkeep probably averaged $3000 a year, that works out to $5625 a year, my cost didn't even reach what you claim the savings are.
If I rented a place in a walkable city my rent would probably be three to four times what my current mortgage payment is and I would need a metro card for the subway or bus. Add to that many of the "walkable" cities like NYC you are going to have to pay extra taxes for the pleasure of living there. I figure I would be down about $20,000 a year living in a "walkable city".
Maybe you are spending less on you car than the Average American does.

I cited my source for the $4,400 per year for gasoline figure.

You probably save money by:
+ Driving less, and using less gasoline,
+ Driving your "old" car for more years than most people do.

Both are smart moves IMHO. But you haven;t said anything about insurance, finance costs, repairs, etc. These can creep up, and often money gets spent without people keeping track.

Were I live, I spend far less than $10,000 per annum on local transport - that would be USD 27.39 daily, or about HKD 210 daily. I reckon I spend less than 10% of that now.

Some people take driving and car expenses as a "given", and don't even consider ways of cutting those costs. When I consider moves, I take NO CAR as a given, and try to work out other ways to get around, and build the lifestyle that I want to have.

Check out that video at 1:17 minutes in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPS1y81b1Bw&wide=1

The architects talks about his vision of people living with No Cars, have 18-20 story buildings surrounding rail stations - "jewels on a necklace", with people walking to shop locally, socialise locally, and maybe even work locally. They would only take trains when they need to go longer distances, and visit other hubs. That pretty well describes things in Hong Kong, except that the buildings are taller - I live on the 50th floor, and most of the new buildings around here approach that height.



If you look carefully, you will see that these buildings are arranged in a ring. In the middle of the ring is a highway circle, and right next to that is an MTR station. The shopping is ontop of/ or next to the MTR station, so everyone here finds it easy to shop for groceries or whatever they need. Each modern building has its own clubhouse with a gym, swimming pool, sauna, etc. And within an easy walk, I have over 20 restaurants, including one with a Michelin star.

Also, when I want to go for a walk in nature, I can get there in less than 40 minutes, using cheap public transport.

Last edited by Geologic; 02-02-2013 at 05:06 AM..
 
Old 02-02-2013, 05:02 AM
 
Location: Hernando County, FL
8,489 posts, read 20,651,257 times
Reputation: 5397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
Maybe you are spending less on you car than the Average American does.

I cited my source for the $4,400 per year for gasoline figure.

You probably save money by:
+ Driving less, and using less gasoline,
+ Driving your "old" car for more years than most people do.

Both are smart moves IMHO. But you haven;t said anything about insurance, finance costs, repairs, etc. These can creep up, and often money gets spent without people keeping track.

Were I live, I spend far less than $10,000 per annum on local transport - that would be USD 27.39 daily, or about HKD 210 daily. I reckon I spend less than 10% of that now.

Some people take driving and car expenses as a "given", and don't even consider ways of cutting those costs. When I consider moves, I take NO CAR as a given, and try to work out other ways to get around, and build the lifestyle that I want to have.
I paid cash, so no finance cost. I included upkeep in my figure. Insurance would add $774 a year.
Still way less than I would spend to live in a "walkable city", a point that you keep excluding from your calculations.
 
Old 02-02-2013, 05:03 AM
 
7,975 posts, read 7,354,876 times
Reputation: 12046
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
5 years ago when I checked, about 300 people gave up citizenship - the numbers are increasing fast.

I reckon the incomes/wealth of the 1700 was probably more than the 700K odd coming in. If so, the net is making the country poorer.

Have you forgotten that many of those are coming across the border from a poorer southern neighbor? Many come, both legally and illegally, for the benefits they can pick up.
You've got that right. And guess where they are moving? That is what happened to our old city neighborhood when we were urban dwellers. It was a nice (though a bit too high density) neighborhood of old townhouses owned by families and retirees. Then one by one, the older residents died or moved to retirement communities and rented out their properties. Then came "Section 8" and a mass of new tenants from a "poorer southern neighbor" moved en mass to a nearby apartment complex that wasn't diligent about asking if they were here legally. It may just be coincidence, but from there, property values began to plummet, vandalism and crime went up, and there was a mass exodus (my family wasn't the only one). I had my car windows smashed enough times, but to top it off the playground of the school my children attended was spray painted with gang insignia, the brand new fiberglass equipment and slides broken. We drove by there a couple of years ago - it is obvious that the pride and upkeep of the properties isn't there anymore. I don't know who is living there now, nor do I care.
 
Old 02-02-2013, 05:07 AM
 
Location: My little patch of Earth
6,193 posts, read 5,370,306 times
Reputation: 3059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
Cars svck, and car owners have an expensive addiction.
Feel free to create your own utopia type society.

Stay out of mine.
 
Old 02-02-2013, 05:08 AM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 1,104,896 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike1306 View Post
I paid cash, so no finance cost. I included upkeep in my figure. Insurance would add $774 a year.
Still way less than I would spend to live in a "walkable city", a point that you keep excluding from your calculations.
Actually, housing has been a negative cost for me. I pay cash for my property, and it appreciates faster than leaving money in the bank.

That's part of the attraction of moving to the US now, I reckon that property is now in the right part of the cycle to do that. I stayed away in the mid-2000s (2003-2007), when it was obvious that things were getting oevrheated.

But even if property in general goes up, I think that car-dependent areas may fall in price if/when oil rises again. I have learned this much from watching US prices over the last decade.
 
Old 02-02-2013, 05:14 AM
 
Location: Hong Kong
1,329 posts, read 1,104,896 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrench409 View Post
Feel free to create your own utopia type society.
Stay out of mine.
Actually, if enough people "see the light" as I do, then:

+ Taxes on gasoline will rise, and
+ Parking will be moved to less convenient places

So you have reason to be concerned, if you are car-dependent. I think it should be pretty clear by now that the trend has turned, and more people want to live without cars, so the constituency against car owners will grow and grow, relentlessly year-by-year.

Why not join the winning side, and "go with the flow", instead of fighting for to bring back the golden age of happy motoring. It is not going to happen. No one is going to put that particular genie back into its bottle.
 
Old 02-02-2013, 05:17 AM
 
Location: Hernando County, FL
8,489 posts, read 20,651,257 times
Reputation: 5397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
Actually, housing has been a negative cost for me. I pay cash for my property, and it appreciates faster than leaving money in the bank.

That's part of the attraction of moving to the US now, I reckon that property is now in the right part of the cycle to do that. I stayed away in the mid-2000s (2003-2007), when it was obvious that things were getting oevrheated.

But even if property in general goes up, I think that car-dependent areas may fall in price if/when oil rises again. I have learned this much from watching US prices over the last decade.
You question me using my own actual figures, which is much closer to the norm than your claim of no housing cost. Less than 20% of the population in the country has no housing cost, that number is even lower in urban areas that are walkable since the rental rate is higher.

You have been exposed over and over, just give it up.
 
Old 02-02-2013, 05:21 AM
 
Location: Hernando County, FL
8,489 posts, read 20,651,257 times
Reputation: 5397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic View Post
Actually, if enough people "see the light" as I do, then:

+ Taxes on gasoline will rise, and
+ Parking will be moved to less convenient places

So you have reason to be concerned, if you are car-dependent. I think it should be pretty clear by now that the trend has turned, and more people want to live without cars, so the constituency against car owners will grow and grow, relentlessly year-by-year.

Why not join the winning side, and "go with the flow", instead of fighting for to bring back the golden age of happy motoring. It is not going to happen. No one is going to put that particular genie back into its bottle.
You are freaking delusional, the number of cars per capita has steadily increased every year. Nothing what so ever to back up your claim.
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