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We're not talking about a word - we're talking about a legally binding coupling.
Christianity doesn't own the word "marriage".
So we’re not talking about the word because it doesn’t suit you? Christianity doesn’t own the word nor the gays/lesbians. The word, expression, custom, etc. has been used since antiquity.
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Originally Posted by nightbird47
Then get the government out of "marriage" and issue a legal binding contract between two consenting adults which insures that one of them is not a child or unable to consent for some other reason and all rights which we now assign to "marriage" are given the couple. Protections for children who are part of the uniion remain in place. Then they can go and find someone who wants to "marry" them, or have a do-it-yourself vowes and be married. If your church does not want to they don't have to. But the rights of human beings are being protected to make their own choice.
That is why people should support the marriage of an adult with his/her teenage boy/girl and let them love each other, right? Same with pets, robots, etc. It’s all about love.
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The only other condition I'd make is brother-sister, sister-sister, or brother-brother should not be acceptable since it crosses other boundries which often have at some time before led to abuse, including brother to brother or sister to sister. But this is not the primary issue here.
Change is always welcomed in modern countries like the USA so I won’t be shocked when I see “Sibling Love Pride Parades” later on in the near future.
Any benefit (tax deductions etc.) can easily be done on an individual basis.
The other points are valid but I imagine those can be taken care of in the certification process, or there could be contracts easily available that would grant the same protections.
A birth certificate provides benefit and protections between a parent and child; same could be done via a marriage certificate.
There have been cases where the long term partner of a relationship has been evicted from the hospital room by the long absent family by law and even denied visits to the dying loved one. This is one of the most important provisions of "marriage" along with the right to make medical decisions with the partner. Imagine if the family of a hetrosexual patient showed up and told the doctor they didn't like the wife/husband and didn't want them around and this is what they give permission to. A marriage contract (or civil union contract with FULL rights, the name itself doesn't matter) could cover all this and those who think its some kind of terrible sin to love someone they don't approve of can just say no to a ceremony and feel all justified.
A friend of mine and her partner got together about the same time I got married. They are still together and will always be. I wish I'd never moved in with him. Nightmare alley in time. So which of us really deserves to call it a marriage since hers with her companion is a real one, even if they can't get the governments permission. My marriage was a sham from the start, only I didn't know it for a few years. No more husband for me. If I meet a guy who offers something *real* it can be real without government entanglement.
So we’re not talking about the word because it doesn’t suit you? Christianity doesn’t own the word nor the gays/lesbians. The word, expression, custom, etc. has been used since antiquity...
No, we're not talking about word usage, customs, expression or anything else and not because it "doesn't suit me".
We're talking about LEGAL MARRIAGE. Word usage, common customs and everything else have no bearing on US law - which is what is being discussed.
I think that's hooligan's point. The benefits and protections between a parent and child are provided via the government. Benefits and protections via a marriage certificate are still via the government.
I understand, hence why I feel a marriage certificate (documentation and recording of the event) will suffice and we don't need preapproval from the government (licenses).
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Originally Posted by onihC
Nope, the word marriage has been used since antiquity. Sure, I agree with you, government shouldn’t decide how you carry your relationship or an adult’s relationship with a teenager, a robot, or what not. Let everybody carry on their loving relationship as they wish so we can all celebrate diversity, embrace differences, be a happy family, be open minded, accept others, and every other gay/lesbian slogan..
Yes the WORD marriage has been around since about 1250AD, the United States of Americas state issued Marriage permission has been around about 100 years.
No you don't agree with me. Diversity does not involve child abuse or coercing people who cannot legally approve contracts.
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Originally Posted by onihC
Ok then, I’ll use another expression “for the people that support gays/lesbians”…you’ll say that those who oppose are afraid, hateful, close-minded, bigots, etc. Which is a good way to make people want to root for gays/lesbians and not be labeled like that. Label me whoever you want but I don’t support gays/lesbians the same way I don’t support the lifestyle of a, say, gambler, drunk, etc. Do I hate a drunk? Nope, I just don’t support what he does. Am I afraid of a gay person as gay supporters would say just because I don’t root for them? Nope, I can go to the movies with one if I want to, share a meal, go shopping, etc. In fact, I have 2 gay friends. One of them is funny as heck and have a great time with him. I just don’t root for his lifestyle. .
I root for freedom of free adults to enter into contracts without the approval or permission of the government. Unlike many "Pro Americans" who are very hypocritical, I promote liberty for all adults. (No, liberty does not mean harming others)
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Originally Posted by onihC
Saying that someone is gay and Muslim, gay and Christian, etc. is like saying that one is a vegetarian steak-eater. Or, a neo-vegetarian, modern-vegetarian, open minded vegetarian, whatever you want to call it. You are either vegetarian or not. .
Yes, exactly, you are either saved (A Christian) or not. Last I looked belief in Jesus as your savoir is what makes one a Christian, not your works. Why would Jesus die for us if we were still bound by the law???? Under your definition unless you are free from sin due to your good works, you cannot claim the term Christian. Find me ONE Christian using you criteria.
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Originally Posted by onihC
Ooooh and gays/lesbians are perfect couples, right? Yes, I agree with you, living a lie is a sin, just like homosexuality according to most religions out there: Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Mormon’s, etc..
Utopia is not an option. What do those religions have to do with this debate? Should we start pushing for enactment of the Sharia law?
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Originally Posted by onihC
Then be as supportive of liberty for those older women/men who want to be free to enjoy a loving relationship with their teenage boy/girl, a robot, or whatever. Remember the gay/lesbian slogans..
Like the change of accepting adult/teenage marriages, pets, robots, etc. Sounds shocking but change always happens. And according to gay/lesbian slogans they proudly proclaim and chant, then I guess everybody will accept all kinds of loving relationships in countries like USA.[/quote]
Gay and lesbian slogans are regarding people who are legally able to enter into consensual contracts. Child cannot. Sorry.
Your fear mongering "what if" statements have been around since we first started talking about freeing slaves, then it was moved to giving women the right to vote, then it went to interracial marriage. Should we back out all of those freedoms because of the what ifs?
During the last 150 years we still don't have people marrying animals or children, you are just trying to divert the debate.
I am beginning to think that you might really be a gay marriage advocate who is acting like an extreme, ridiculous sounding anti-gay marriage promoter in order to make the Anti side look bad. If that is the case, you are doing a great job, keep it up!
So we’re not talking about the word because it doesn’t suit you? Christianity doesn’t own the word nor the gays/lesbians. The word, expression, custom, etc. has been used since antiquity.
And its definition has changed with time.
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Originally Posted by onihC
That is why people should support the marriage of an adult with his/her teenage boy/girl and let them love each other, right? Same with pets, robots, etc. It’s all about love.
Consenting, reciprocal love between adults. Something that, after pages and pages in this thread, you still don't seem to grasp.
We don't allow children to buy houses, and contracts entered into by minors are voidable due to the consent argument (children can always argue that they lacked the capacity for consent at the time of contract and get out of their obligations).
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Originally Posted by onihC
Change is always welcomed in modern countries like the USA so I won’t be shocked when I see “Sibling Love Pride Parades” later on in the near future.
And what of it to you or your own relationship or marriage?
If you can't find independent reasons to NOT support "sibling love," then maybe "sibling love" and "sibling marriage" should be allowed. UNTIL such time as there IS a movement to allow same, however, you do not penalize others seeking entry into the institution who have legitimate reasons and a legitimate movement.
If the "slippery slope" is your best argument, why not abolish ALL marriage, between straights as well? After all, if you let straight people marry, pretty soon people will want to marry their plants.
That is why people should support the marriage of an adult with his/her teenage boy/girl and let them love each other, right? Same with pets, robots, etc. It’s all about love.
Nope, teens, pets and robots are not valid legal entities. Don't you get tired of trying this same tired argument over and over?
If your neighbor's dog bites you, do you sue the dog or the neighbor?
Surely you're not this dense and you're simply winding us all up?
There have been cases where the long term partner of a relationship has been evicted from the hospital room by the long absent family by law and even denied visits to the dying loved one. This is one of the most important provisions of "marriage" along with the right to make medical decisions with the partner. Imagine if the family of a hetrosexual patient showed up and told the doctor they didn't like the wife/husband and didn't want them around and this is what they give permission to. A marriage contract (or civil union contract with FULL rights, the name itself doesn't matter) could cover all this and those who think its some kind of terrible sin to love someone they don't approve of can just say no to a ceremony and feel all justified.
A friend of mine and her partner got together about the same time I got married. They are still together and will always be. I wish I'd never moved in with him. Nightmare alley in time. So which of us really deserves to call it a marriage since hers with her companion is a real one, even if they can't get the governments permission. My marriage was a sham from the start, only I didn't know it for a few years. No more husband for me. If I meet a guy who offers something *real* it can be real without government entanglement.
I agree I don't care what it is called; it is the contract that is key to protection. I don't think we need different contacts for hetro or homosexual marriages. One marriage certificate for all with no preapproval from the government is the easiest option.
No, we're not talking about word usage, customs, expression or anything else and not because it "doesn't suit me".
We're talking about LEGAL MARRIAGE. Word usage, common customs and everything else have no bearing on US law - which is what is being discussed.
Get it?
If we’re not talking about the word usage then don’t use the word “marriage” call it something else, respect its true meaning. Just like how the word “gay” used to mean happy and now it is used for homosexuals. Use another word then, “rainbow union” or whatever. I am sure you guys can come up with something. Go ahead and fight for legal benefits, that’s fine. Just like sooner or later adults and their teenage boys/girls will fight for the same, robots, pets, plants, etc. It’s an open minded nation that is all about liberty so go for it.
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Originally Posted by hilgi
Yes the WORD marriage has been around since about 1250AD, the United States of Americas state issued Marriage permission has been around about 100 years
And since the USA has changed or modernized what marriage means then let all the others so called preferences/orientations to live happily with their significant other as well and march for pride and rights, right? I mean, your slogans sound like they would support them as well.
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No you don't agree with me. Diversity does not involve child abuse or coercing people who cannot legally approve contracts
It’s not ABUSE if they are a loving couple. Besides, contracts can be “redefined” as well, just watch.
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I root for freedom of free adults to enter into contracts without the approval or permission of the government. Unlike many "Pro Americans" who are very hypocritical, I promote liberty for all adults. (No, liberty does not mean harming others)
How about freedom to all other preferences/orientations who love each other as well and all that nice stuff just like gays/lesbians?
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Yes, exactly, you are either saved (A Christian) or not. Last I looked belief in Jesus as your savoir is what makes one a Christian, not your works.
According to Christian belief, the bible IS God’s word and it is clear how homosexuality is a sin. Jesus came to this world to what? To die for humanity’s SIN (that includes homosexuality). Some people want to continue living in sin I guess. According to Christian beliefs. Same thing for other religions.
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Gay and lesbian slogans are regarding people who are legally able to enter into consensual contracts. Child cannot. Sorry
Gays/lesbians redefined laws, rules, unions, etc. Why not have adults and their teenage lover redefine as well? An adult and a teenager sounds dirty, perverted, against nature, bad, etc.? Hhhhmph, the irony.
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Your fear mongering "what if" statements have been around since we first started talking about freeing slaves, then it was moved to giving women the right to vote, then it went to interracial marriage. Should we back out all of those freedoms because of the what ifs?
Yup, same thing goes to all other orientations/preferences out there who will be marching side by side with you on their pride parades as well and fighting for their rights, redefining stuff, etc.
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During the last 150 years we still don't have people marrying animals or children, you are just trying to divert the debate
The USA did not have gays/lesbians doing what they do now longer ago. It’s just a matter of time.
People keep saying a teen is not a valid entity. Well, gay/lesbian unions were not valid either and now what is happening? Gays/lesbians are REDEFINING lots of stuff. Why not let other preferences/orientations REDEFINE stuff too? Don’t you guys support change, love, diversity, etc.? Or are your slogans hypocrite and selfish just for gays/lesbians?
In America, "marriage" is nothing more than a legal contract between two (or more) persons that comes with certain privileges, rights, benefits, and protections.
Anybody who is capable of legally signing a contract should be able to enter into a "marriage contract" with another who is capable of legally signing a contract.
No hypocrisy, no special treatment, nothing.
Neither religion nor love have anything to do with marriage as a legal contract - which is all that is recognized as legitimate in the United States.
If we’re not talking about the word usage then don’t use the word “marriage” call it something else, respect its true meaning. Just like how the word “gay” used to mean happy and now it is used for homosexuals. Use another word then, “rainbow union” or whatever. I am sure you guys can come up with something. Go ahead and fight for legal benefits, that’s fine. Just like sooner or later adults and their teenage boys/girls will fight for the same, robots, pets, plants, etc. It’s an open minded nation that is all about liberty so go for it.
If I simply made up a word for it, how would you know what I was talking about.
Today, in the United States, "married" *is* the legal term. Sorry if you don't like that, but I don't make the rules, I just play by 'em.
Again with the teenagers, robots and pets drivel. I'm fairly certain we'll never see 14 yr olds, robots or dogs being recognized as legal entities in our lifetimes, so let's just stop worrying about that. Shall we?
Oh, and only ~1.5% of the US is gay, I'm certain it would take more than 1.5% to change the common usage of a word. So, homosexuals didn't steal the word gay, we straight folks did it. Again, sorry if you don't like it, but them's the breaks.
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