Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,693,648 times
Reputation: 10256
Advertisements
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl
Have you seen the Rowan University campus lately?
The $100 million gift that caused Glassboro State College to rename itself for the donor transformed it dramatically. It was once a small teachers' college of the kind Pennsylvania is about to shrink out of existence to reduce the costs of running the State System of Higher Education; it's now a notable regional university that draws students from all over the country and 40 foreign countries — about 20,000 of them. I learned from a fellow who lives on Glassboro's west side (near Rowan's athletic practice fields) that students were filling the houses in his subdivision as they were all over the borough; to fix this, borough and university poured $426 million into producing this chunk of Instant Urbanism on what had been 96 single-family homes right in the center of the borough.
Maybe there's not enough going on between here and Camden to justify a light rail line, but this strikes me as a big potential traffic driver at its end. And the line certainly has the potential to spur redevelopment along it, especially in Woodbury and a couple of other towns along NJ 55, like Pitman (Route 55, you may recall, was completed into Gloucester County in the early 1990s; this line will roughly parallel at its outer end).
Now, I also know that won't happen unless the communities along its route want it to, and one of those communities where a station is planned, Wenonah, doesn't want the line to stop there at all. But I think that Gloucester City (which is in Camden County, granted) and Woodbury would definitely want to capitalize on the line's potential.
I'm not saying that this rivals Corridor A in the amount of economic activity or traffic drivers along it; the Cherry Hill Mall alone makes that a laughable proposition. (Edited to add: And while Corridor A as proposed in that 1952 report would stop short of Mount Laurel, extending it beyond Moorestown to there would not be all that costly, and any route that extended to the Burlington County seat of Mount Holly would perforce run through Mount Laurel.) But I am saying that the GCL won't be a RiverLine-scale waste of money, largely because of what's happened at its end.
If you know of someone who has access to the Inquirer's archives, there was an article published in the mid 70s about PATCO's proposal for two spurs of the PATCO line, one to Moorestown and the other to Glassboro. Trenton refused to go along, wanting the federal money for North Jersey, and refused to chip in a penny for the two proposed spurs. The federal money eventually ended up building the system in Atlanta.
Since then a lot of small employers in Gloucester County have gone under as well as the CBS Records plant in Pitman which later became Sony. In the mean time, Glassboro State is now Rowan and as you pointed out is taking over Glassboro.
The result is a large uptick of traffic headed for and from Philadelphia and certain places in Camden County. A rail line in Gloucester County would be much more useful than a line to Moorestown for getting cars off the roads.
A factor in this is the closure of Campbell's soup plant in Camden. More farmers in western Gloucester County were effected, even though Progresso makes soup in Vineland.
If you know of someone who has access to the Inquirer's archives, there was an article published in the mid 70s about PATCO's proposal for two spurs of the PATCO line, one to Moorestown and the other to Glassboro. Trenton refused to go along, wanting the federal money for North Jersey, and refused to chip in a penny for the two proposed spurs. The federal money eventually ended up building the system in Atlanta.
Since then a lot of small employers in Gloucester County have gone under as well as the CBS Records plant in Pitman which later became Sony. In the mean time, Glassboro State is now Rowan and as you pointed out is taking over Glassboro.
The result is a large uptick of traffic headed for and from Philadelphia and certain places in Camden County. A rail line in Gloucester County would be much more useful than a line to Moorestown for getting cars off the roads.
A factor in this is the closure of Campbell's soup plant in Camden. More farmers in western Gloucester County were effected, even though Progresso makes soup in Vineland.
Progresso closed their Vineland plant 4 years ago.
There really is not a great deal of travel between Glassboro and Philadelphia with Rowan University though. Just as there really is not that much travel between West Chester University and Philadelphia.. which the two are about the same distance and of the same size..
While Rowan has made major strides and I really do applaud them.. their most elevated graduate program is actually in Camden, not Glassboro..
Gloucester County is a small and rural service based economy that is mostly a bedroom community to those who commute to Camden County for work.
The major employment hub of South Jersey is Camden and Burlington Counties...
Gloucester County is very small.. with 250,000 people in total.
If the state had money to do multiple lines.. I would say construct both... but as we all know, funds are limited and if we truly want to invest in effective transit that would benefit New Jersey (both South and Central), Philadelphia and residents of both areas a line going North to Burlington County and stopping in Mt. Holly would be a game changer.
PREIT I believe has proposed 2,000 apartments at the Moorestown Mall alone.... Gloucester County even with Rowan just does not have that type of economic development and is a bedroom community of Camden County overall and even is a bedroom community for those who work across the river in Wilmington.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,693,648 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by rowhomecity
Rowan has made major strides which I commend...
There really is not a great deal of travel between Glassboro and Philadelphia with Rowan though. Just as there really is not that much travel between West Chester and Philadelphia.. which the two are about the same distance and of the same size.. although I believe West Chester is slightly larger.
Rutgers Camden definitely sees a lot of cross travel.. and that does have existing transit in place with PATCO.
The major employment hub of South Jersey is Camden and Burlington Counties...
Gloucester County is very small.. with 250,000 people in total.
If the state had money to do multiple lines.. I would say construct both... but as we all know, funds are limited and if we truly want to invest in effective transit that would benefit New Jersey (both South and Central), Philadelphia and residents of both areas a line going North to Burlington County and stopping in Mt. Holly would be a game changer.
PREIT I believe has proposed 2,000 apartments at the Moorestown Mall alone.... Gloucester County even with Rowan just does not have that type of economic development and is a bedroom community of Camden County overall and even Wilmington.
Burlington County is home to:
TD Bank
Lockhead Martin
Boeing
Burlington Stores
Amazon
And Mt. Holly is only about 25 minutes to Princeton and its employment core...
A line north makes way more sense, to connect the economic centers of South and Central Jersey to Philadelphia.
Do you understand that bedroom communities generate more traffic going to communities with jobs? When Pitman had the CBS Records plant, later Sony Records, there was little traffic in Pitman because most of the employees who lived there walked to it. My sister has lived in Pitman for 40 years. She is appalled by the difference in the traffic.
Gloucester County used to be dotted with small employers but many no longer exist. Many farmers in western Gloucester County had contracts with Campbell's Soup until the soup factory was moved to Ohio. Farms were sold off for subdivisions. This has been going on for a long time.
Do you understand that bedroom communities generate more traffic going to communities with jobs? When Pitman had the CBS Records plant, later Sony Records, there was little traffic in Pitman because most of the employees who lived there walked to it. My sister has lived in Pitman for 40 years. She is appalled by the difference in the traffic.
Gloucester County used to be dotted with small employers but many no longer exist. Many farmers in western Gloucester County had contracts with Campbell's Soup until the soup factory was moved to Ohio. Farms were sold off for subdivisions. This has been going on for a long time.
Glassboro-Camden Line makes more sense to build precisely because there are less major employers in Gloucester County than in Burlington County. You would have a higher percentage of people commuting to Philadelphia and Camden for work. Commuter rail is meant to connect to major cities. Employers spread out in Mount Laurel and Moorestown in Burlington County are set up in suburban office parks. People are going to drive to get to them. There is just no way around it. It would not be practical any other way.
My problem with the GCL is that it is light rail and too slow, like the RiverLine. It should be heavy rail like the Atlantic City Line, and if you do that, you might as well take the extra step of extending it out to Vineland and Millville. It is easier to build than a Burlington County Line, and because there is still more undeveloped land, you really have a shot at making new TOD along the line. Whereas in Burlington County, you are going to have more eminent domain issues to deal with, and most of that track is already developed…in a very sprawly way.
GCL should be first priority. Second priority would be the hypothetical line to Mount Holly. While they are at it though, they should do a really easy addition of a Merchantville station on the Atlantic City Line. Minimal investment there and a town with great bones that could benefit from it (although I believe technically the station would fall just over the border in Pennsauken if you want to get wonky about it).
The other thing I thought about was a second PATCO line south of the current one. The tracks already exist, and you have towns with great bones similar to Haddonfield, Westmont, and Collingswood. I’m talking about Oaklyn, Audubon, Haddon Heights, Barrington, and Laurel Springs. Maybe run it out to Clementon. All you need are the stations. The only piece of new track you need to lay down is a connection from Oaklyn to the Ferry Ave station to join the main PATCO line.
The ridership alone from commuters who live in Gloucester County and work in Philly and want an alternative option from dealing with the traffic of Route 55/I-676 is enough to justify building the Glassboro-Camden line.
Also the long term vision for the Glassboro-Camden line is to eventually extend to Millville, NJ in Cumberland County. The Vineland/Millville area are big employment hubs in South Jersey which could potentially draw even more commuters from the Philadelphia/Camden area and vice versa. The current bus service from Cumberland County is very slow slow and a direct rail line from Camden to Millville will boost the ridership of the train significantly.
Do you understand that bedroom communities generate more traffic going to communities with jobs? When Pitman had the CBS Records plant, later Sony Records, there was little traffic in Pitman because most of the employees who lived there walked to it. My sister has lived in Pitman for 40 years. She is appalled by the difference in the traffic.
Gloucester County used to be dotted with small employers but many no longer exist. Many farmers in western Gloucester County had contracts with Campbell's Soup until the soup factory was moved to Ohio. Farms were sold off for subdivisions. This has been going on for a long time.
I mean I am all for building two additional lines. One to Glassboro and one to Mt. Holly. But you have to look at where the people in Gloucester County are living and working. Most work in Camden County or over the bridge in Pennsylvania or Delaware. Not in Philadelphia to be honest. Many even work in Burlington County and drive up 295.. because Burlington and Camden Counties are the employment hubs of South Jersey...
I think the Mt. Holly line should be a priority. Over twice as many people live in Burlington County over Gloucester County... and Mercer County is also very large which is just 20 minutes to the North and Mercer County is a huge employment center as well.. And many many people do not enjoy the transfer in Trenton and would drive an extra 20 minutes to have a one stop and more convenient one trip ride in Burlington County from the Princeton Area which is far more populous and prosperous with jobs than Gloucester County.
Gloucester County is very rural and does not see a lot of commuting to Philadelphia city..
Honestly more people in Gloucester commute to Wilmington, than Philadelphia if you look at the numbers.
But I am all for building both and improving TOD development along the lines...
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,693,648 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by rowhomecity
I mean I am all for building two additional lines. One to Glassboro and one to Mt. Holly. But you have to look at where the people in Gloucester County are living and working. Most work in Camden County or over the bridge in Pennsylvania or Delaware. Not in Philadelphia to be honest. Many even work in Burlington County and drive up 295.. because Burlington and Camden Counties are the employment hubs of South Jersey...
I think the Mt. Holly line should be a priority. Over twice as many people live in Burlington County over Gloucester County... and Mercer County is also very large which is just 20 minutes to the North and Mercer County is a huge employment center as well.. And many many people do not enjoy the transfer in Trenton and would drive an extra 20 minutes to have a one stop and more convenient one trip ride in Burlington County from the Princeton Area which is far more populous and prosperous with jobs than Gloucester County.
Gloucester County is very rural and does not see a lot of commuting to Philadelphia city..
Honestly more people in Gloucester commute to Wilmington, than Philadelphia if you look at the numbers.
But I am all for building both and improving TOD development along the lines...
My sister knows plenty of people who work in Philadelphia.
There are people in Camden County who work in Delaware, but the vast majority work in Philadelphia or the Pennsylvania suburbs. The object of the game is getting cars off the roads. Someone who lives in Gloucester County and works in a South Jersey location near the PATCO line could take the train to Camden, then transfer to PATCO and backtrack. There has always been the ability to stay on your own side of the Delaware River.
Both spurs were turned down in the 70s by Trenton. They would have been heavy rail then. This was one of the regional complaints behind the 1980 attempt by the southern counties to secede from NJ and form a 51st state of South Jersey. Trenton's abominable record on all things transit and transportation was consistent. When they decided to do the mostly useless River Line, it was not met with thanks or applause. The towns that got it didn't want it and people in other towns stayed away. It was seen as a way for criminals in Camden and Trenton to go back and forth. They offered free rides to all residents in South Jersey. That offer was mostly ignored. No one asked for the River Line. No one wanted it. People are not grateful for it. The powers that be in Trenton tried to point to the River Line and say that people in South Jersey couldn't say that they don't do anything for South Jersey. They were told point blank by people what people thought about it and told them to look at the ridership to see what people thought about it.
Look at the population centers in Burlington County vs Gloucester County. As to going north to Mt Holly, are you aware of the flooding issues around the Rancocas River?
My sister knows plenty of people who work in Philadelphia.
There are people in Camden County who work in Delaware, but the vast majority work in Philadelphia or the Pennsylvania suburbs. The object of the game is getting cars off the roads. Someone who lives in Gloucester County and works in a South Jersey location near the PATCO line could take the train to Camden, then transfer to PATCO and backtrack. There has always been the ability to stay on your own side of the Delaware River.
Both spurs were turned down in the 70s by Trenton. They would have been heavy rail then. This was one of the regional complaints behind the 1980 attempt by the southern counties to secede from NJ and form a 51st state of South Jersey. Trenton's abominable record on all things transit and transportation was consistent. When they decided to do the mostly useless River Line, it was not met with thanks or applause. The towns that got it didn't want it and people in other towns stayed away. It was seen as a way for criminals in Camden and Trenton to go back and forth. They offered free rides to all residents in South Jersey. That offer was mostly ignored. No one asked for the River Line. No one wanted it. People are not grateful for it. The powers that be in Trenton tried to point to the River Line and say that people in South Jersey couldn't say that they don't do anything for South Jersey. They were told point blank by people what people thought about it and told them to look at the ridership to see what people thought about it.
Look at the population centers in Burlington County vs Gloucester County. As to going north to Mt Holly, are you aware of the flooding issues around the Rancocas River?
I wish there was a line for both Glassboro and Mt. Holly. I would just prioritize Cherry Hill - Mt. Laurel/Moorestown and Mt. Holly... lots more people. Lots more jobs. Lots more commuters overall. And easy connectivity to Mercer County. All positive all around. Mt. Laurel has way more white collar employers and is a center of good jobs for South Jersey that people in Philadelphia would like to commute too.
Mt. Laurel is home to Pharmaceuticals, Aviation, Finance... all very good jobs and way more jobs than Gloucester County. Mt. Laurel could potentially be the King of Prussia of South Jersey if transit was provided.. and TOD development would follow.
I hope South Jersey can do it...
The Riverline is a big miss. It is so unfortunate. It takes 1hr and 40 minutes to commute on it from Trenton to Philadelphia and is so shortsighted because it encourages no TOD development along the line so ridership is so low as well.....
The riverline might be the slowest transit I have ever been on.
South Jersey deserves.. two new high speed lines. An improved line to the shore with, increased frequency, TOD development along the line and a shore light rail to at least connect Atlantic City, Brigantine and Vetnor.
North Jersey has a shore commuter line...
To be fair. I am very critical of the King of Prussia rail expansion and think it is very short sighted and its current proposed route is a major miss.
Last edited by rowhomecity; 06-17-2021 at 06:22 PM..
One big reason the GCL is advancing first is because the ROW and tracks are already there.
After Trenton starved PATCO's proposal to build both Corridors A and C, the discussion on the question "So what do we do now to get more rapid transit in South Jersey?" focused entirely on Corridor C — I remember reading articles about a "modified PATCO" option for that corridor when I moved here in the early 1980s — and that was because it would be easier to get construction on the route going thanks to the presence of an intact right-of-way and tracks.
South Jersey got the River Line for the exact same reason, even though no one, not even in South Jersey, saw a reason to build it.
By contrast, no intact rail line runs in the NJ 38 corridor, though I think that parts of a right-of-way for one long abandoned still exist. That means that you'd have land acquisition and eminent domain issues to tackle when building Corridor B unless you ran it as an elevated over NJ 38, which would make the line good for remote vehicle storage and little else. The higher cost and complexity of the project probably contribute to its dormancy. That and Trenton's reluctance to give South Jersey the money it needs to build robust transit infrastructure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leps12
The other thing I thought about was a second PATCO line south of the current one. The tracks already exist, and you have towns with great bones similar to Haddonfield, Westmont, and Collingswood. I’m talking about Oaklyn, Audubon, Haddon Heights, Barrington, and Laurel Springs. Maybe run it out to Clementon. All you need are the stations. The only piece of new track you need to lay down is a connection from Oaklyn to the Ferry Ave station to join the main PATCO line.
Since PATCO also offers the function of remote vehicle storage — Woodcrest station was added to the line after it opened for that purpose alone — a rail line in the corridor you propose here would cannibalize a good chunk of its traffic.
Unless you built the stations without parking, which I would definitely do in Oaklyn and Audubon. But even then, it might still be too close to the existing PATCO route to draw enough patronage on its own.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
