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Have you guys been tracking the neighborhood now labelled SoNo? It's basically 6th to Front and Spring Garden to Callowhill. There are FIVE new high rise projects about to break ground. Two on opposite sides of 5th and Spring Garden and two near Front or 2nd around Willow I think and a final one somewhere around there. Additionally across from the Target, there are a row of high-end houses that are close to completion. Once these come to fruition and the residential situation goes from what is basically 444 Lofts and some houses here and there, to literally thousands more people with money, I think that area should get it's own neighborhood name. Since the Philly mint is right there, I think we should go with "Federal Mint" or "Moneytown." Kidding, but still exciting that this area is going to eventually bridge NL and Old City into one seamless path of awesomeness.
The amount of large proposals in that area is beyond impressive, and many are great looking too. Within the next decade, the gap between Old City and Northern Liberties might actually be a distant memory. I hope these buildings can attract good retail / food options too. A Trader Joes would be a huge kickstart to attracting retail.
Girard has several large projects in the works too, hopefully not curtailed by Clarke's lame attempt at downzoning parts of the corridor. And lets not forget the huge Post Brothers projects surround the former Piazza.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muinteoir
Yeah I completely agree. The money could be so better spent. What's wrong with the arena down in the stadium area of South Philadelphia anyway? I like that all of that is contained in one area, and that the rowdiness is removed from our core.
I agree. Historically the idea of a separate stadium complex was meh, but now I like it. I would like to see that area develop more - More hotels, bars, entertainment options, etc. And the complex is still fairly connected to Center City, its a quick uber/taxi, bus or subway ride away. I would rather see East Market developed with condos, hotels, shopping, offices, etc. rather than a sports arena. Center City does not need a Madison Square Garden.
I agree. Historically the idea of a separate stadium complex was meh, but now I like it. I would like to see that area develop more - More hotels, bars, entertainment options, etc. And the complex is still fairly connected to Center City, its a quick uber/taxi, bus or subway ride away. I would rather see East Market developed with condos, hotels, shopping, offices, etc. rather than a sports arena. Center City does not need a Madison Square Garden.
Or Staples Center.
Or American Airlines Center (or its predecessor Reunion Arena).
Or Enterprise Center.
Or Sprint^WT-Mobile Center.
Or TD Bank Garden.*
I understand the case for keeping the basketball arena in the South Philly sports ghetto. But like baseball, basketball has historically been a game played in the middle of cities, not on their edges. *The TD Bank Garden sits on the site of the historic Boston Garden, which dated to the 1920s and sits atop one of Boston's two main railroad stations. New York's current Madison Square Garden is an act of vandalism, but the building had two predecessors, both in the middle of Manhattan, too. The other four arenas I mention above are in the downtowns of Los Angles, Dallas, St. Louis and Kansas City, the latter two replacing arenas located away from the city center as well. (I think that's also the case for the Staples Center.)
Prior to the opening of the Spectrum in 1971, the Sixers played in the old (and now demolished) Municpal Auditorium (later Philadelphia Civic Center) in University City, next to downtown. Two other cities — Chicago and Seattle — have sports arenas located just outside downtown in this fashion.
And like the baseball parks, the indoor arenas both inject energy into an urban district and feed off the energy already extant in said district. (Keep in mind also that, unlike the football stadium or the ballpark, the indoor arena hosts a bunch of events besides games.) I'd say that, if anything, having the Wells Fargo Center down there wastes its energy too.
I am not arguing that public money go towards a new Sixers arena. As Pennsport noted, the Sixers' owners could easily afford to pay for one. But I am saying that we have had zero success coming up with something to reanimate the old Gimbels site, and a sports arena might just do that, with benefits for all the restaurants and bars within walking distance, which are many, in Chinatown, Old City and Washington Square West. Edited to add: And it would be a shot in the arm for the Broad Street Line Ridge Spur.
I'm sorry, but can you imagine the traffic if an arena was built in Center City? Traffic is bad enough as it is, now you want drag hundreds of automobiles into Center City every time there's a game or major event in the arena? I'm glad to keep it out of downtown . Traffic in our city and Metro is crippling to begin with.
And maybe basketball is meant to be played in the middle of the city, but it's not like people are going to be walking up and watching courtside in some sort of a public way. It's a gigantic arena that you have to buy tickets to get into. It won't make the experience of watching any better and it won't make the team perform any better. Oh, and let's not forget that it's a gigantic complex that will sit empty most of the day.
I agree about the traffic in Center City. I have repeated myself on the topic, but no one has given me a bad reason for not picking Broad and Washington. Massive empty lot. Big street. Subway stations a block or two on either side. Ring the outside of the arena with retail at street level.
If I were to pick a second location, the arena would stay in South Philly. I would like to see mixed-use buildings built on top of several parking lots closer to broad with the addition of parking garages near the Wells Fargo since people generally do not tailgate for indoor events compared to Football or Baseball.
I'm sorry, but can you imagine the traffic if an arena was built in Center City? Traffic is bad enough as it is, now you want drag hundreds of automobiles into Center City every time there's a game or major event in the arena? I'm glad to keep it out of downtown . Traffic in our city and Metro is crippling to begin with.
Maybe, but in contrast to the Sports Complex, which sits at one end of the Broad Street Subway, the block I've been talking about sits right next to an interchange subway station, the only one fed by all three of this city's rapid-transit lines (don't forget the PATCO Lindenwold Line), as well as one of the three central Regional Rail stations, Jefferson Station. There's a closed-off crossover over the 8th Street Station tracks that leads into the Fashion District concourse level; this could be reopened to provide all-weather access to Jefferson Station from the arena.
That might keep a lot of those cars out of Center City. You don't think SEPTA and PATCO wouldn't add service for events? The only choke point I can think of is the one-track Ridge Spur station, but you could always use one of the two tracks to store extra trains and run regular service on the other track until the end of the event. You'd have to change an existing trailing crossover south of Fairmount (Ridge Spur) station to a full scissors crossover, but that's a trivial matter.
(PATCO routinely stores peak-hour trains on one track of the Locust Street subway during the early afternoon. It can do the same for events at this arena.)
Maybe, but in contrast to the Sports Complex, which sits at one end of the Broad Street Subway, the block I've been talking about sits right next to an interchange subway station, the only one fed by all three of this city's rapid-transit lines (don't forget the PATCO Lindenwold Line), as well as one of the three central Regional Rail stations, Jefferson Station. There's a closed-off crossover over the 8th Street Station tracks that leads into the Fashion District concourse level; this could be reopened to provide all-weather access to Jefferson Station from the arena.
That might keep a lot of those cars out of Center City. You don't think SEPTA and PATCO wouldn't add service for events? The only choke point I can think of is the one-track Ridge Spur station, but you could always use one of the two tracks to store extra trains and run regular service on the other track until the end of the event. You'd have to change an existing trailing crossover south of Fairmount (Ridge Spur) station to a full scissors crossover, but that's a trivial matter.
(PATCO routinely stores peak-hour trains on one track of the Locust Street subway during the early afternoon. It can do the same for events at this arena.)
Maybe you've forgotten that you were in the United States. Yes, SEPTA and PATCO would offer service. But there would still be an enormous number of people that want to drive. You're not going to avoid that here.
Washington would not be a bad second option however. The only problem with that is that South Broad would be backed up from people exiting on the interstate. And I could see Washington Avenue becoming a mess as well.
Anyone see that Washington Avenues Street redesign is yet again delayed for at least another year? What a surprise.
Yup. I was going to post the article.
Ridiculous, and the delay increases the risk of the redesign not going through as planned. The lack of vision, effort and transparency from leaders making these decisions is disappointing (the nicest word I can think of).
I am sure the Spring Garden Street plan will follow a similar trajectory - Years of studies, plans, etc. then delay after delay, and the end result be a half-a$$ version of the original plan, which is actually good.
Or American Airlines Center (or its predecessor Reunion Arena).
Or Enterprise Center.
Or Sprint^WT-Mobile Center.
Or TD Bank Garden.*
I understand the case for keeping the basketball arena in the South Philly sports ghetto. But like baseball, basketball has historically been a game played in the middle of cities, not on their edges. *The TD Bank Garden sits on the site of the historic Boston Garden, which dated to the 1920s and sits atop one of Boston's two main railroad stations. New York's current Madison Square Garden is an act of vandalism, but the building had two predecessors, both in the middle of Manhattan, too. The other four arenas I mention above are in the downtowns of Los Angles, Dallas, St. Louis and Kansas City, the latter two replacing arenas located away from the city center as well. (I think that's also the case for the Staples Center.)
Prior to the opening of the Spectrum in 1971, the Sixers played in the old (and now demolished) Municpal Auditorium (later Philadelphia Civic Center) in University City, next to downtown. Two other cities — Chicago and Seattle — have sports arenas located just outside downtown in this fashion.
And like the baseball parks, the indoor arenas both inject energy into an urban district and feed off the energy already extant in said district. (Keep in mind also that, unlike the football stadium or the ballpark, the indoor arena hosts a bunch of events besides games.) I'd say that, if anything, having the Wells Fargo Center down there wastes its energy too.
I am not arguing that public money go towards a new Sixers arena. As Pennsport noted, the Sixers' owners could easily afford to pay for one. But I am saying that we have had zero success coming up with something to reanimate the old Gimbels site, and a sports arena might just do that, with benefits for all the restaurants and bars within walking distance, which are many, in Chinatown, Old City and Washington Square West. Edited to add: And it would be a shot in the arm for the Broad Street Line Ridge Spur.
Have we though? Or does Goldenburg just like to sit on prime real estate and claim the market isn't ready or they don't have proper capital. That site could easily act as an extension of the Market East development, and it would be successful.
And I appreciate your analysis, but I still do not like the idea of a Center City arena, I think the problems it will bring are worse than the potential benefits.
Have we though? Or does Goldenburg just like to sit on prime real estate and claim the market isn't ready or they don't have proper capital. That site could easily act as an extension of the Market East development, and it would be successful.
And I appreciate your analysis, but I still do not like the idea of a Center City arena, I think the problems it will bring are worse than the potential benefits.
Broad & Wash could be an option though.
I understand the potential complications of building a stadium in Market East. However, this area of CC has been depressed and underused for literally decades. An arena would immediately rejuvenate the entire area - probably push the Loft District over the edge (this area has been doing "OK" for a long time, but can't ever seem to take it home); would infuse new life into Old City; would be a shot in the arm for Chinatown; would probably even extend commerce down to South St. It would be game changing for a historically under-utilized part of the core of the city. Regarding traffic, people would quickly figure it out. The last report I saw crunched data to see who was predominantly attending the games of each of our four major sports. Ironically, the Sixers (ironically bc basketball is widely considered an urban sport) have a huge attendance base from wealthy areas outside the city. If I lived in Wayne or Ardmore and found that to get in and out of the city for a game was routinely 3+ hours each way, I would quickly change my approach and just drive to the Ardmore Septa station and take the train in. People can, and will, adapt.
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