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I mean really, old school Indian family? Where drowning a daughter is acceptable, and if two teens date outside of their caste system they get strung up like the Christmas Deer.
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I never said Indian as in Middle-Eastern! I said WEST-indian! That can be any person from the islands out in the Caribbean!
Did you ever see the documentary Let's Talk About Sex (available on YouTube and maybe Hulu too -- that's where I saw it)? It compares attitudes towards teen sexuality in the Netherlands and in the US. It's by no means perfect, but the filmmaker shows plenty of examples of young- to mid-teenagers in the Netherlands whose parents do indeed allow them to have partners at the house overnight and provide them with condoms. The parents by and large say that this is a normal part of relationships and they don't want the kids sneaking around. It's important to them that they keep the lines of conversation open and not particularly important to them that kids delay having sex if they're in the context of a stable relationship. And lo and behold the rates of STDs, pregnancies, and births among teens are FAR lower there than in the US.
(The most interesting part, to me, is when the filmmaker asks a number of Dutch and American teens, "What would you think if you went on a date with someone and you found out they had a condom in their wallet?") The Americans' responses were all, "I'd think they were obsessed with sex!" or "I'd think they were a player," while the Dutch teens were all, "That tells me that they take responsibility for themselves," and "I carry condoms too -- everyone should; it's not a big deal.")
This "stable" relationship - would that mean the 14 y.o. who has had more than one date? Or is it a relationship that has lasted for a full week? Two? How about a month? At 14, the girl who receives two texts from the same boy in the same day thinks that's a "stable" relationship.
Fourteen-year-old girls don't have the acumen to pick out the right person with whom to have a "stable" relationship. That's why their crush-of-the-moment changes so frequently.
Young to mid-teeners would by definition include 12/13 y.o. and mid, 14/17. Those at the lower end of the teen years are not equipped to form lasting relationships. The mid, some maybe, but they're rare.
While they may be having sex, I don't believe in promoting, approving or supporting it. I don't think that 16 y.o. are mature enough to operate a motor vehicle but that's just me.
I do approve of educating teens on the facts surrounding their bodies and the changes taking place. I think they should be equipped to know what happens when one chooses to have sex, protected or not but preferably protected, and the ramifications of teen pregnancy, fatherhood, etc. Explain all this and include how disappointed you will be if they choose ignore your advice.
Do I think they'll find a way regardless of how I try to prevent it from happening? Yes, I do. I did. And it's way too late for regrets, but I wonder how different my life might have been...
Did you ever see the documentary Let's Talk About Sex (available on YouTube and maybe Hulu too -- that's where I saw it)? It compares attitudes towards teen sexuality in the Netherlands and in the US. It's by no means perfect, but the filmmaker shows plenty of examples of young- to mid-teenagers in the Netherlands whose parents do indeed allow them to have partners at the house overnight and provide them with condoms. The parents by and large say that this is a normal part of relationships and they don't want the kids sneaking around. It's important to them that they keep the lines of conversation open and not particularly important to them that kids delay having sex if they're in the context of a stable relationship. And lo and behold the rates of STDs, pregnancies, and births among teens are FAR lower there than in the US.
(The most interesting part, to me, is when the filmmaker asks a number of Dutch and American teens, "What would you think if you went on a date with someone and you found out they had a condom in their wallet?") The Americans' responses were all, "I'd think they were obsessed with sex!" or "I'd think they were a player," while the Dutch teens were all, "That tells me that they take responsibility for themselves," and "I carry condoms too -- everyone should; it's not a big deal.")
No, I've not seen the video but I have spent time in the Netherlands. Including seeing the Red Light District in Amsterdam. Once you see that you know you're not in Kansas anymore. I first saw it during the height of the hippie days. American hippies loved Amsterdam, lol. They weren't judged for their attitudes about free love.
I never said Indian as in Middle-Eastern! I said WEST-indian! That can be any person from the islands out in the Caribbean!
Really doesn't matter. . .technically
The larger point is that history does not make it correct, and that any research of older beliefs will find plenty of tidbits that were wrong . . or socially unacceptable.
The free love generation? I was there...having sex with people you did not know...who's names you do not recall or who's face you never saw again. There was only one thing good about it..You could sample the product quickly and if the person was appropriate you would move in...and become part of some sort of marriage...It really was practical- everyone was not just looking to have sex with everyone. Everyone was looking for that someone...It was efficient paring...It was not just about hedonistic sex...We were looking for love..
The difference I see today with young people and older ones for that matter is that LOVE is secondary- pleasure and sex is paramount...and people having recreational sex have the mantra of "I am not looking for a serious relationship"...Well we were all looking for something serious..today part of the culture is so base that it is lower and more unnatural than basic animal instincts.
When you have kids who encouraged to have sex at 14...and handed out condoms...it's sick..and all they talk about is "safe sex" and "stable relationships" but never about love...I feel sorry for this generation ....and worse...Older people are now living alone and having sex with anyone that has a heart beat...and no one is serious...about anything- plus young people now think that the pleasure of sex is love..
Back in the day we lost our virginity- male and female at the average age of 18 not...13 or 14...it is simply to young- and gets people off to a bad start and instills a bad attitude about sex - the opposite sex...and family life in general.
The frontal lobe is not fully developed until age 26 in boys. I believe it's younger in girls...early 20's? This area of the brain "...is associated with reward, attention, short-term memory tasks, planning, and motivation."
Maybe it's unreasonable to encourage sexual activity in a person whose brain development is not yet ready to fully handle planning and motivation, attention, etc...?
8. keep them locked up so they have no experience in the real world
9. put blinders on them on the rare occasions they do have to leave home
10. instill so much guilt in them that they become totally dependent on their parents and church for the rest of their lives.
11. punish them severely if they are discovered masturbating. tell them they will rot in hell for having sexual thoughts
12. never let them see their parents as anything other than the super human and rigid demigods they portray themselves to be
good luck with that
Nonsense. We have children in the youth symphony, boy scouts, soccer league, and many other community activities. They don't wear blinders. My oldest three spent three weeks away from home last summer, the youngest being just 13. Two will be off to college next year. They know that sex is sacred, not dirty. They know very well that their parents are flawed and don't mind pointing it out from time to time. They are liberated by grace, not paralyzed by guilt.
People like you seem to have a psychological need to maintain the caricature of the repressed, joyless, dour, tyrannical, abusive uber-religious family. Perhaps it relieves you from having to think about what certain kinds of families might be doing right.
This is not a reasonable extrapolation of the previous posters points...all that alliteration not intended.
Anyway, we home schooled for seven years and now my kids are in a private school. We have very similar guidelines to Western Pilgrim, except we are Jewish and so probably a bit different culturally.
regarding your points:
9) we don't put blinders on our kids when they go out. their eyes are wide open. we encourage them to learn from others mistakes. we talk about the roots of the dysfunction in our own extended family. choosing the right spouse is a big one. on one side, the in-laws bicker constantly, on the other they divorced years ago and time has to be split between the families and no one gets to see as much of each other as they would like. these are all consequences of choosing the wrong spouse. we tell our kids that NOW is the time to learn to become a good judge of character. if there is a boy you like, pay attention to his actions...do they match his words? does he treat other people the way he would like to be treated?
10) i think what you mean by this is the Puritan/Victorian culture of guilt, which is much different from my jewish culture of guilt which has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with constant self improvement. some guilt, (when you lost your temper and yelled at your kids for no good reason) is healthy. it allows you to ask forgiveness and to forgive when someone has wronged you. guilt about your body is a completely different thing. i think greek culture, which is the basis for christianity (my husband is a christian, i'm jewish) has a focus that the body is bad and the spirit is good. the ideal is to leave the body in favor of the spirit so anything physical is considered bad. judaism is not like this. G-d made both the body and the spirit, so both are good. but i think a lot of the culture in christianity stems from this idea of the ultimate purity being totally spiritual. there has been quite a bit of movement away from this in christian thinking in the past 30-40 years, though. so i think your accusations may be a bit displaced as a blanket statement.
11)Who tells their kids they will rot in hell for having sexual thoughts? Again, I think this is a leftover Puritan thing. We are sexual beings and sex is a good and healthy thing, within reasonable boundaries, which like I said before we ALL have. Some of our boundaries are just broader than others.
12) is it possible for kids not to see their parents at both their best and worst? we live together! my kids see me whine and complain about things, and then realize that my focus is all wrong. they know when i am feeling frustrated, i start making lists of the things i am thankful for, because i know that there are always good and bad and we have the choice of which we will focus on. again, i think you are thinking of an old school English puritanism which certainly has bled over a bit, but it simply doesn't cover the grand spectrum of religious people.
Very well said, pegotty. And with patience and charity.
I would like to clarify something - "but i think a lot of the culture in christianity stems from this idea of the ultimate purity being totally spiritual. there has been quite a bit of movement away from this in christian thinking in the past 30-40 years, though."
Christian spirituality is about uniting the soul with God and removing all obstacles to this union. The body is meant to assist us in this process. The Catholic Church has always taught that sex is something sacred, and we have many married saints as evidence. God taking on human flesh sanctified the body and all material things. The idea that the flesh and material creation is evil is a gnostic heresy that the Church dealt with early on.
I'll admit that I live, by choice, in something of a cultural "bubble" among conservative, religious, mostly homeschooling families. Sometimes I forget that parents outside of this context really do think they are totally helpless in preventing their children from having sex, abusing drugs or alcohol, or engaging in other misbehavior. Their children are off at school or with friends the vast majority of time, doing heaven knows what with people the parents have never met, accountable to no one it seems. Modern parents see themselves as responsible for providing material support until graduation, friendly advice when asked, and maybe a shoulder to cry on, but apparently little else.
Now then, teen pregnancy isn't completely unheard of in our communities. I've known three or four cases out of hundreds of teens in the last 15 years, and one of them ended in a happy marriage. But in general, teens living with these families can be counted on to behave honorably and responsibly. The recipe is not difficult, and I'm glad to share it:
1. Teach your children the truth about sex and marriage.
2. Put good examples in their lives constantly.
3. Minimize pop culture influences and, preferably, eliminate television.
4. Make sure they are never exposed to pornography.
5. Know who their friends are.
6. Keep them very, very busy.
7. Homeschool, or send them to a school with strong values in this department.
It works.
I am sure that it works in some cases, however, kids are kids whether homeschooled or not.
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