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8. keep them locked up so they have no experience in the real world
9. put blinders on them on the rare occasions they do have to leave home
10. instill so much guilt in them that they become totally dependent on their parents and church for the rest of their lives.
11. punish them severely if they are discovered masturbating. tell them they will rot in hell for having sexual thoughts
12. never let them see their parents as anything other than the super human and rigid demigods they portray themselves to be
good luck with that
13, Make sure they have no basis for a normal, healthy sex life even when they get married.
8. keep them locked up so they have no experience in the real world
9. put blinders on them on the rare occasions they do have to leave home
10. instill so much guilt in them that they become totally dependent on their parents and church for the rest of their lives.
11. punish them severely if they are discovered masturbating. tell them they will rot in hell for having sexual thoughts
12. never let them see their parents as anything other than the super human and rigid demigods they portray themselves to be
good luck with that
This is not a reasonable extrapolation of the previous posters points...all that alliteration not intended.
Anyway, we home schooled for seven years and now my kids are in a private school. We have very similar guidelines to Western Pilgrim, except we are Jewish and so probably a bit different culturally.
regarding your points:
9) we don't put blinders on our kids when they go out. their eyes are wide open. we encourage them to learn from others mistakes. we talk about the roots of the dysfunction in our own extended family. choosing the right spouse is a big one. on one side, the in-laws bicker constantly, on the other they divorced years ago and time has to be split between the families and no one gets to see as much of each other as they would like. these are all consequences of choosing the wrong spouse. we tell our kids that NOW is the time to learn to become a good judge of character. if there is a boy you like, pay attention to his actions...do they match his words? does he treat other people the way he would like to be treated?
10) i think what you mean by this is the Puritan/Victorian culture of guilt, which is much different from my jewish culture of guilt which has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with constant self improvement. some guilt, (when you lost your temper and yelled at your kids for no good reason) is healthy. it allows you to ask forgiveness and to forgive when someone has wronged you. guilt about your body is a completely different thing. i think greek culture, which is the basis for christianity (my husband is a christian, i'm jewish) has a focus that the body is bad and the spirit is good. the ideal is to leave the body in favor of the spirit so anything physical is considered bad. judaism is not like this. G-d made both the body and the spirit, so both are good. but i think a lot of the culture in christianity stems from this idea of the ultimate purity being totally spiritual. there has been quite a bit of movement away from this in christian thinking in the past 30-40 years, though. so i think your accusations may be a bit displaced as a blanket statement.
11)Who tells their kids they will rot in hell for having sexual thoughts? Again, I think this is a leftover Puritan thing. We are sexual beings and sex is a good and healthy thing, within reasonable boundaries, which like I said before we ALL have. Some of our boundaries are just broader than others.
12) is it possible for kids not to see their parents at both their best and worst? we live together! my kids see me whine and complain about things, and then realize that my focus is all wrong. they know when i am feeling frustrated, i start making lists of the things i am thankful for, because i know that there are always good and bad and we have the choice of which we will focus on. again, i think you are thinking of an old school English puritanism which certainly has bled over a bit, but it simply doesn't cover the grand spectrum of religious people.
This is not a reasonable extrapolation of the previous posters points...all that alliteration not intended.
Anyway, we home schooled for seven years and now my kids are in a private school. We have very similar guidelines to Western Pilgrim, except we are Jewish and so probably a bit different culturally.
Jewish values surrounding sex are very very different from Christian values (which vary). I am sure that you are aware but for the benefit of those who are not familiar with the Jewish views of sex I will summarize them:
1. Sex between married people is considered normal and natural (not dirty).
2. Sex is not solely for the purpose of procreation. Companionship and pleasure are considered acceptable reasons to have sex.
3. Birth control is acceptable (within certain parameters). Although there is a commandment to be fruitful and multiply that does not require couples to have unlimited numbers of children.
4. Men are REQUIRED to provide their wives with sexual intimacy in marriage.
5. The pleasure derived from sex is considered a gift from G-d.
Of course, there are many rules associated with sex in Judaism but there are profound differences between the way SOME non Jews see sex. I do think that it makes a difference in how we approach sex with our children.
Jewish values surrounding sex are very very different from Christian values (which vary). I am sure that you are aware but for the benefit of those who are not familiar with the Jewish views of sex I will summarize them:
1. Sex between married people is considered normal and natural (not dirty).
2. Sex is not solely for the purpose of procreation. Companionship and pleasure are considered acceptable reasons to have sex.
3. Birth control is acceptable (within certain parameters). Although there is a commandment to be fruitful and multiply that does not require couples to have unlimited numbers of children.
4. Men are REQUIRED to provide their wives with sexual intimacy in marriage.
5. The pleasure derived from sex is considered a gift from G-d.
Of course, there are many rules associated with sex in Judaism but there are profound differences between the way SOME non Jews see sex. I do think that it makes a difference in how we approach sex with our children.
My point was that my husband was raised Christian. So we have talked a lot about these differences. I do believe he was damaged by some of his upbringing. He definitely has some of the taboo associations with sex. I think his upbringing was more of the Puritan type of Christianity, though. When we first got married we went to lots of different churches (before finally settling in a synagogue) so I've heard a lot of teaching on the subject. I do think there is a cultural shift taking place in the thinking of Christians on this subject so that there is less of this puritan/guilt complex being passed down. Just my observations....
Which is why I think it's unfair to make broad generalizations about how all Christians are screwing up there kids with the guilt complex. Certainly some are. But there are some in all segments of the population who are screwing up their kids. I don't think Christians are doing it in greater percentages than other groups.
As a former home schooler, I have also seen plenty of that type of over-protectiveness no kudzu talked about. It does exist. One of our neighbors was a home school family and they wouldn't let their ten year old daughter come to our house alone. We were next door for heavens sake and we are a very involved family. But, that is not a testament to the entire home school community. Being an involved parent doesn't necessarily equal over-protective and domineering.
So, based on one of these studies you love so much, are you going to let your 14-year old daughter's boyfriend have sex with her in her bedroom while you're in the other room having a beer watching TV?
"Be sure you use a condom, Sweetheart. And don't make too much noise! The Broncos are first and goal!"
What about a 14-year old son? Does he get to "entertain" in his room? (I have a zillion questions. Like do you put the condoms on top of his bed stand or put them in the drawer so Mom doesn't know. Or does she know? Sooo many questions if the quantitative studies are the guidelines used.)
Did you ever see the documentary Let's Talk About Sex (available on YouTube and maybe Hulu too -- that's where I saw it)? It compares attitudes towards teen sexuality in the Netherlands and in the US. It's by no means perfect, but the filmmaker shows plenty of examples of young- to mid-teenagers in the Netherlands whose parents do indeed allow them to have partners at the house overnight and provide them with condoms. The parents by and large say that this is a normal part of relationships and they don't want the kids sneaking around. It's important to them that they keep the lines of conversation open and not particularly important to them that kids delay having sex if they're in the context of a stable relationship. And lo and behold the rates of STDs, pregnancies, and births among teens are FAR lower there than in the US.
(The most interesting part, to me, is when the filmmaker asks a number of Dutch and American teens, "What would you think if you went on a date with someone and you found out they had a condom in their wallet?") The Americans' responses were all, "I'd think they were obsessed with sex!" or "I'd think they were a player," while the Dutch teens were all, "That tells me that they take responsibility for themselves," and "I carry condoms too -- everyone should; it's not a big deal.")
Teenagers wouldn't be having sex if their parents didn't let them. American parents simply have lost control of their households. They don't know how to lay down the law and keep their kids out of trouble because all they do is send their kids to their rooms or have them go sit in time out. I come from a strict West-Indian family and you better believe we weren't allowed to do any of that stuff most Americans parents consider normal under 18 like smoking or having sex. You would have gotten your ass beat and kicked out of the house. Male or female. You had to have your own place, your own life, and pay your own bills to be doing things that adults did. That was common sense parenting.
Last edited by allenk893; 10-09-2012 at 09:40 AM..
As far as "common sense" parenting, here is the thing. Humans are stupid. Lets fess up. We can't think. We hold to tradition even facts say otherwise.
I mean really, old school Indian family? Where drowning a daughter is acceptable, and if two teens date outside of their caste system they get strung up like the Christmas Deer.
If I step away from "history" which is full of idiot examples like the above. . .and just look at the evidence, I'm perfectly okay . . as long as my kids are educated and take precautions with the guidelines of my state (15+).
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenk893
Teenagers wouldn't be having sex if their parents didn't let them. American parents simply have lost control of their households. They don't know how to lay down the law and keep their kids out of trouble because all they do is send to their kids to their rooms or have them go sit in time out. I come from a strict West-Indian family and you better believe we weren't allowed to do any of that stuff most Americans parents consider normal under 18 like smoking or having sex. You would have gotten your ass beat and kicked out of the house. Male or female. You had to have your own place, your own life, and pay your own bills to be doing things that adults did. That was common sense parenting.
I don't think there's one right answer. Some of them responsible enough to have sex, some aren't. (And some people never become responsible enough at any age.) But many of the ones who aren't will do it anyway, no matter how much we disapprove, what laws we pass or how many lives we destroy in the process.
One thing I will say unreservedly, though: if a teenager consents to having sex with someone, whether it's a "good idea" or not, it ought to be a family matter, not a legal matter.
I don't think there's one right answer. Some of them responsible enough to have sex, some aren't. (And some people never become responsible enough at any age.) But many of the ones who aren't will do it anyway, no matter how much we disapprove, what laws we pass or how many lives we destroy in the process.
One thing I will say unreservedly, though: if a teenager consents to having sex with someone, whether it's a "good idea" or not, it ought to be a family matter, not a legal matter.
I may disagree with that, i mean your 13-17 year old daughter can't consent to your 37 year old husband's friend. or other positions of authority. . .
I may disagree with that, i mean your 13-17 year old daughter can't consent to your 37 year old husband's friend. or other positions of authority. . .
Are we talking about the legal definition of consent or a moral definition?
I don't think "Dad's friend" constitutes a person in legal authority unless, perhaps, he is formally babysitting. In which case my state would say, at 16 you are good to go.
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