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I agree OC is mostly suburban sprawl type development, as is the great majority of LA county. But I think these folks above have a very valid point. OC is economic powerhouse in it's own right. So is Silicon Valley, a highly regarded portion of CA that is mostly development as illustrated in the "suburban" pictures.
So I can live with the suburban moniker even though Fast Cat's dictionary definitions show it doesn't truly apply. Suburban sprawl areas represent some of the most productive portions of CA and in no way should be minimized as some kind of backwater. Heck the unemployment rate in OC is lower than most of CA, and as said earlier more people stream into OC to work than leave it to work. OC is far, far from a bedroom community.
Urban Planner, thanks for the pics, but they are not needed. I completely get your perspective, which of course you completely entitled to believe. However, I was simply pointing out that there is other perspectives, specifically the suburb as the bedroom community to the urban core. From that perspective, OC is not a suburb, but it's own unique urban place.
I respect your perspective, but I believe mine is just as appropriate.
OC is economic powerhouse in it's own right. So is Silicon Valley, a highly regarded portion of CA that is mostly development as illustrated in the "suburban" pictures.
Of course we are an economic powerhouse! Heck, OC has like the lowest or 2nd lowest unemployment rate in the state. I have never indicated otherwise nor does my explanation say suburban areas are less economically vibrant.
I'm talking about the physical and urban function of the county, which is suburban for the most part.
FWIW regarding thread title, I don't know why anyone in OC should be scared of Santa Ana thriving or being cool. I certainly am not. There is no inverse relationship between the state of Santa Ana and the state of the rest of OC. Just the opposite actually. All the best to Santa Ana!
I should add, no one is debating whether OC is Moreno Valley or Temecula or anything, we are actually debating the physical characteristics and function here. So don't look at it just by definition, one should never do that.
You're right. Your photo example of suburban showed nothing but housing tracts and parking lots. Thats usually what a true suburb is. Maybe mix in some strip malls with grocery stores and chain restaurants. Thing is, many OC cities are much more than that. Go look at your pic of the suburbs again. Do you see any of these things?
Anaheim-A true suburb does not have one of the largest amusement parks in the country, next to a 44k seat stadium with a professional baseball team next to an 18k seat arena with a professional hockey team next to a giant state of the art transit center with restaurants and shops inside of it. Anaheim also has one of the largest numbers of hotels of any city in the country, a massive convention center and dozens of high-rises. Not a suburb...
Irvine-Again, more huge buildings, major interstates, giant malls and shopping/business centers and high-rises grouped together. Don't see this in a true suburb.
Newport Beach-Marina, pacific ocean, giant shopping and business complexes, high-rises. None of these are found in a true suburb.
Orange County is NOT urban. You have no idea what you're even talking about and the reasons you're coming up with are completely asinine.
"Newport Beach-Marina, pacific ocean, giant shopping and business complexes, high-rises. None of these are found in a true suburb."
ROFL. Yep, no suburbs can have shopping complexes or be near the Pacific Ocean. What a complete joke.
Let me drop some knowledge bombs on you since after 12 pages of looking like a complete idiot it seems you're still too thick to understand simple urban design terminology.
Edge city - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia An Edge City is an American term for a concentration of business, shopping, and entertainment outside a traditional downtown (or central business district) in what had previously been a residential or rural area. The term was popularized in the 1991 book Edge City: Life on the New Frontier by Joel Garreau, who established its current meaning while working as a reporter for the Washington Post. Garreau argues that the edge city has become the standard form of urban growth worldwide, representing a 20th-century urban form unlike that of the 19th-century central downtown. Other terms for the areas include suburban activity centers, megacenters, and suburban business districts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boomburb Boomburb is a neologism for a large, rapidly growing city that remains essentially suburban in character even as it reaches populations more typical of urban core cities. Like edge city, an older and more widely accepted term, it describes a relatively recent phenomenon in North America. California: Anaheim, Chula Vista, Corona, Costa Mesa, Daly City, Escondido, Fontana, Fremont, Fullerton, Irvine, Lancaster, Moreno Valley, Orange, Oceanside, Ontario, Oxnard, Palmdale, Rancho Cucamonga, Riverside, San Bernardino, Santa Ana, Santa Clarita, Santa Rosa, Simi Valley, Sunnyvale, Thousand Oaks
Orange County is NOT urban. You have no idea what you're even talking about and the reasons you're coming up with are completely asinine.
"Newport Beach-Marina, pacific ocean, giant shopping and business complexes, high-rises. None of these are found in a true suburb."
ROFL. Yep, no suburbs can have shopping complexes or be near the Pacific Ocean. What a complete joke.
Let me drop some knowledge bombs on you since after 12 pages of looking like a complete idiot it seems you're still too thick to understand simple urban design terminology.
Edge city - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia An Edge City is an American term for a concentration of business, shopping, and entertainment outside a traditional downtown (or central business district) in what had previously been a residential or rural area. The term was popularized in the 1991 book Edge City: Life on the New Frontier by Joel Garreau, who established its current meaning while working as a reporter for the Washington Post. Garreau argues that the edge city has become the standard form of urban growth worldwide, representing a 20th-century urban form unlike that of the 19th-century central downtown. Other terms for the areas include suburban activity centers, megacenters, and suburban business districts.
Boomburb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Boomburb is a neologism for a large, rapidly growing city that remains essentially suburban in character even as it reaches populations more typical of urban core cities. Like edge city, an older and more widely accepted term, it describes a relatively recent phenomenon in North America. California: Anaheim, Chula Vista, Corona, Costa Mesa, Daly City, Escondido, Fontana, Fremont, Fullerton, Irvine, Lancaster, Moreno Valley, Orange, Oceanside, Ontario, Oxnard, Palmdale, Rancho Cucamonga, Riverside, San Bernardino, Santa Ana, Santa Clarita, Santa Rosa, Simi Valley, Sunnyvale, Thousand Oaks
I am familiar with Joel Garreau work. The LATimes cited his work in a series of articles in 1999 discussing the social and economic changes that were taking place at the turn of the millennium.
IMHO if each of the OC cities listed in your response were taken in isolation and still had some dependence on LA, then the edge city or bloomburg description would be appropriate. However these cities are no longer dependent upon LA and instead have interdependence between each other as well as the smaller OC communities not mentioned.
If one wants a banker, accountant, or an attorney for their mom and pop business or fortune 500 enterprise enterprise, they can find one that specializes in their specific line of business in Irvine or Newport Beach. If you want enjoy a world renown theatrical performance, you have the Segerstrom Center for the Performing Arts. Need to purchase some upscale designer fashion, you have more choices concentrated at one location at South Coast than anywhere else on the West Coast. Want to purchase some antiques, go to Orange. Need some assistance from a government agency, let me head to Santa Ana. Need some family entertainment choices, Anaheim I am there. Need a weekend to relax with the wife, Laguna Beach here I come. We rely solely in the OCTA for transportation infrastructure needs. We rely on local water districts to supply our water needs. I can on and on with example after example.
As stated previously, our urban fabric is unique (perhaps only Santa Clara and San Mateo counties are similiar) and does not fit the mold of other metropolitan area. Therefore from my perspective, OC is its own urban place that is spread out throughout its 34 cities and unincorporated communities.
Edge city - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia An Edge City is an American term for a concentration of business, shopping, and entertainment outside a traditional downtown (or central business district) in what had previously been a residential or rural area. The term was popularized in the 1991 book Edge City: Life on the New Frontier by Joel Garreau, who established its current meaning while working as a reporter for the Washington Post. Garreau argues that the edge city has become the standard form of urban growth worldwide, representing a 20th-century urbanform unlike that of the 19th-century central downtown. Other terms for the areas include suburban activity centers, megacenters, and suburban business districts.
I think we do need to recognize it is a different form of development than older cities such as DTLA or DTNY (or downtown Santa Ana for that matter). That doesn't mean we need to give an inch on the economic output of the area, or even the creative output of an "edge city" in these discussions. The quote above refers to the edge city being the standard form of urban growth worldwide representing a 20th century "urban form." Which I take to mean the look of OC is more a result of the time of when it developed rather than it's function.
These discussions can get washed up in debate over semantics. But the bottom line OC, Silicon Valley, and others are performing like cities. Even if they don't look like older cities.
I think we do need to recognize it is a different form of development than older cities such as DTLA or DTNY (or downtown Santa Ana for that matter). That doesn't mean we need to give an inch on the economic output of the area, or even the creative output of an "edge city" in these discussions. The quote above refers to the edge city being the standard form of urban growth worldwide representing a 20th century "urban form." Which I take to mean the look of OC is more a result of the time of when it developed rather than it's function.
I think you are right probably right. Because the majority of OC was rural 50 odd years ago it developed in a completely non urban way. Instead it developed as a giant suburb.
Giant shopping malls with sprawling parking lots, huge 8 lane roads, office parks, and strip malls as far as the eye can see. Everything is built to automotive scale, not people. I feel like a broken record because multiple people have to keep repeating this, but OC is not "urban."
Yes.. it sure appears the car is the elephant in the room, but I think you can also add stuff like radio, TV, telephone, now the internet which all combined enabled what we have today. What will be developed 100 200 years from now will be anyone's guess. Certainly I see continued redevelopment of urban cores, and new construction which takes some of their elements into account. Probably you and I agree we'll see a diminished emphasis on the 5 units per acre SFH with yards and driveways. But we may disagree on this: I think any remaining examples will eventually be looked at as a very charming throwback to a simpler era. Sort of like Malvina Reynolds Little Boxes in Daly City are now thought of as a desirable and likeable location. FWIW that song was very sharp social commentary at the time it was released.
As an educated guess, I suspect medium future we'll start to see a hybrid between cars and public transportation. Electrically powered cars (transportation modules lol) with the ability to be powered from the road inductively. Once locked onto a system, controlled by central computers and run far faster, far more efficiently, and much more densely than what is possible now. One may not even own these vehicles, you may ride home in a different vehicle from the one you had earlier. All logistics would be calculated by the massive central processing units. Of course this does not preclude progress in traditional mass transit projects-and mass transit tie ins with the transportation modules.
Last edited by rsmfan; 02-01-2015 at 01:49 PM..
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