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Columbus' growth has exploded in the past few
decades and it's not a coincidence that the size of governments (local, state,
and Federal) have as well.
Really, it has? Let's look at the actual growth rates, shall we? Say, the past 5 decades.
Aside from the 1970s, which was one of the worst urban decades ever for population, I don't really see much trend, except slightly up. Now, let's look at the metro's government jobs. Unfortunately, the data only goes back to 1990.
Total % Change of Government Jobs by Decade using Annual Average (An average of all 12 months)
1990-2000: +9.3%
2000-2010: +8.5%
A decline in the rate?
Total Growth using Annual Average
1990-2000: +12,300
2000-2010: +12,600
The growth between the 1990s and 2000s was just 2.4%.
% of Government Jobs to Total Workforce using Annual Average
1990: 18.2%
2000: 15.9%
2010: 17.5%
So government jobs as a part of the metro's total jobs has actually declined over the period?
How about looking at total government jobs vs. total metro population?
1990: 9.5%
2000: 9.0%
2010: 8.6%
I don't understand... how can it be falling when you said it's exploding? The data indicates that government jobs are actually a smaller part of Columbus' workforce today than they were in previous decades. That just can't be!? You can look it up here: Columbus, OH Economy at a Glance
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In regards to taking our ball and going home, look, Greater Cleveland/Northeast
Ohio is a region of up to 4 million people depending on what definition you use.
Even in using conservative estimates, considering just the five-county
metropolitan area, we're larger than 14 states. We're a region that is
economically sustainable and culturally unique from the rest of the state.
There's absolutely no reason why the idea of self-governance for these counties,
even if it truly is a pipe-dream, should seem like that much of stretch. It's
not about not wanting to share; it's about bringing government closer to the
people and keeping more of the tax dollars in this region.
If all that were true, you wouldn't need to separate at all. You'd be successful regardless. Besides, I don't understand complaining about not getting a "fair share" of state tax dollars, but here you are promoting to remove yourself from the state altogether, giving up any money you would otherwise receive from the rest of the state. How in the holy h*ll does that make sense?
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I'll take this a step further: Cleveland is not special in this regard, I think
the state structure of the United States is arbitrary and archaic and that all
of the largest metropolitan regions in North America would be better off with
more self-governing autonomy. I just don't think these places benefit from
being held hostage by Sacramento, Austin, Tallahassee, Harrisburg, Jefferson
City, etc.
Yes, because clearly Texas, California and Florida are doing badly. Missouri seems alright, as does PA.
So it's totally okay when Cincinnati gets tax dollars for its own business piggybank, but the outrage flies when it's the other way around.
Kasich was trying to get Sears to Ohio, period. The company looked at sites in all 3-Cs. Sears was never going to move from Chicago, and the whole thing was a ploy by them to get bigger/extended tax breaks.
Once again, you're distorting what I've written to fit you own needs.
First, you've ignored the important information presented in my #186 post. Basically, those quoted paragraphs from an Enquirer article summarized it all. So here's an additional paragraph from that same news story: "Southwest Ohio's Hamilton, Butler, Warren and Clermont counties together have 400,000 more people than Franklin County, but combined they still got fewer promised jobs and about $30 million less in tax-credit value. Even Cleveland's Cuyahoga County, the state's largest county, lagged well behind Franklin." (Make it any clearer for you?)
Second, you've distorted the Sears story to fit your own narrative. Once again, Sears' first and foremost discussions were with W&S CEO John Barrett about relocation to Cincinnati and nowhere else--that is, until Kasich came rolling into town with his huge bribe to relocate not merely "to Ohio," but to Columbus, Ohio. And any later disclosure that Sears was only on a covert "fishing expedition" is irrelevant because, prior to that becoming known, the company would have hardly disclosed their ulterior motives to either Barrett or Kasich. What should be most appalling (but doesn't register with you) was Kasich's sheer treachery in this entire affair.
Third, your first sentence is just another manipulative wordplay to repackage reality to fit your own narrative. Had you actually read the DDN article referred to in Post #185, you would have noticed that it was dated 5/24/14 and therefore didn't in any way invalidate the Enquirer article dated 11/18/13. Next, you've minimized the fact that the companies that recently chose to move to SW Ohio made their decisions based on the Cin-Day region itself and not because of any handouts from Columbus. And you've completely ignored Kasich's latest attempt at treachery--that he offered GE a huge sum of money to move to "Ohio," but notSW Ohio. (The implications are clear...)
Obviously, the fact that the Cin-Day corridor just won its sought after designation of "Aerospace corridor" from the U.S. Commerce Department was great--but not only because the honor put the region in front of the line for $1.3 billion in grants, but because it offers some protection in keeping GE in SW Ohio. However (knowing how treacherous Kasich is), no one in Cincinnati should rest easy until GE names either The Banks, Oakley Square, or Mason as home. (enough said)
Aside from the 1970s, which was one of the worst urban decades ever for population, I don't really see much trend, except slightly up. Now, let's look at the metro's government jobs. Unfortunately, the data only goes back to 1990.
Total % Change of Government Jobs by Decade using Annual Average (An average of all 12 months)
1990-2000: +9.3%
2000-2010: +8.5%
A decline in the rate?
Total Growth using Annual Average
1990-2000: +12,300
2000-2010: +12,600
The growth between the 1990s and 2000s was just 2.4%.
% of Government Jobs to Total Workforce using Annual Average
1990: 18.2%
2000: 15.9%
2010: 17.5%
So government jobs as a part of the metro's total jobs has actually declined over the period?
How about looking at total government jobs vs. total metro population?
1990: 9.5%
2000: 9.0%
2010: 8.6%
I don't understand... how can it be falling when you said it's exploding? The data indicates that government jobs are actually a smaller part of Columbus' workforce today than they were in previous decades. That just can't be!? You can look it up here: Columbus, OH Economy at a Glance
If all that were true, you wouldn't need to separate at all. You'd be successful regardless. Besides, I don't understand complaining about not getting a "fair share" of state tax dollars, but here you are promoting to remove yourself from the state altogether, giving up any money you would otherwise receive from the rest of the state. How in the holy h*ll does that make sense?
Yes, because clearly Texas, California and Florida are doing badly. Missouri seems alright, as does PA.
1. COL population has more than doubled since 1950.
2. Considering point #1, the fact that government jobs as a portion of total metro population has essentially stayed the same while population has grown indicates that government employment has also grown significantly. There's little doubt that there has also been growth in jobs that are indirectly related to government (i.e. ranging from Gordon E. Gee's executive assistant's landscapers to special interest lobbying groups that meet with John Kasich). There are also a number of other private employers that I suspect (though can't prove) would not be located in Columbus were it not host city of Ohio's government and/or home to Ohio's flagship, largest, and wealthiest public research university.
3. Again, I said nothing about Columbus failing.
4. Greater Cleveland is a net donor region for the state. Let me break that down for you: Despite any funds that are technically transferred from other parts of the state to this region, we still send more away than we get back. There is no benefit from being associated with the rest of the state; they benefit from being associated with us, at least as far as tax revenues go.
5. I never said that any of those states were failing. I was simply pointing out that those are all multi-modal states where the largest cities may be at odds culturally and politically with one another and where these cities might also benefit from being granted autonomy.
Once again, you're distorting what I've written to fit you own needs.
First, you've ignored the important information presented in my #186 post. Basically, those quoted paragraphs from an Enquirer article summarized it all. So here's an additional paragraph from that same news story: "Southwest Ohio's Hamilton, Butler, Warren and Clermont counties together have 400,000 more people than Franklin County, but combined they still got fewer promised jobs and about $30 million less in tax-credit value. Even Cleveland's Cuyahoga County, the state's largest county, lagged well behind Franklin." (Make it any clearer for you?)
Second, you've distorted the Sears story to fit your own narrative. Once again, Sears' first and foremost discussions were with W&S CEO John Barrett about relocation to Cincinnati and nowhere else--that is, until Kasich came rolling into town with his huge bribe to relocate not merely "to Ohio," but to Columbus, Ohio. And any later disclosure that Sears was only on a covert "fishing expedition" is irrelevant because, prior to that becoming known, the company would have hardly disclosed their ulterior motives to either Barrett or Kasich. What should be most appalling (but doesn't register with you) was Kasich's sheer treachery in this entire affair.
Third, your first sentence is just another manipulative wordplay to repackage reality to fit your own narrative. Had you actually read the DDN article referred to in Post #185, you would have noticed that it was dated 5/24/14 and therefore didn't in any way invalidate the Enquirer article dated 11/18/13. Next, you've minimized the fact that the companies that recently chose to move to SW Ohio made their decisions based on the Cin-Day region itself and not because of any handouts from Columbus. And you've completely ignored Kasich's latest attempt at treachery--that he offered GE a huge sum of money to move to "Ohio," but notSW Ohio. (The implications are clear...)
Obviously, the fact that the Cin-Day corridor just won its sought after designation of "Aerospace corridor" from the U.S. Commerce Department was great--but not only because the honor put the region in front of the line for $1.3 billion in grants, but because it offers some protection in keeping GE in SW Ohio. However (knowing how treacherous Kasich is), no one in Cincinnati should rest easy until GE names either The Banks, Oakley Square, or Mason as home. (enough said)
Columbus grew more than all those entire counties combined the last few years, let alone Franklin County. I don't know if you know about business or not, but I would put more money where it's going to go the furthest. Remember how that article you posted in another thread showed that Columbus was getting more money (which you were outraged about) but was producing far more jobs per dollar than in Cincinnati (which you ignored)? Apparently, it's just harder to create jobs there. Maybe you should demand better from your leadership and business community.
Cincinnati, or any city in the state for that matter, does not get to call dibs. Every city competes, and if Cincinnati is unwilling to do that, too bad. Compete or be left behind. But honestly, Cincinnati did not lose Sears. Neither did Columbus. It was never going to either, so I'm not sure why you continue to bring it up. Oh, and Kasich doing something underhanded shouldn't surprise anyone, even if that's the real version of events.
1. COL population has more than doubled since 1950.
Yes, but 1950-1980 saw massive annexation, which explains quite a bit of that time period's growth. It's not the case anymore, but still.
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2. Considering point #1, the fact that government jobs as a portion of total
metro population has essentially stayed the same while population has grown
indicates that government employment has also grown significantly. There's
little doubt that there has also been growth in jobs that are indirectly related
to government (i.e. ranging from Gordon E. Gee's executive assistant's
landscapers to special interest lobbying groups that meet with John Kasich).
There are also a number of other private employers that I suspect (though can't
prove) would not be located in Columbus were it not host city of Ohio's
government and/or home to Ohio's flagship, largest, and wealthiest public
research university.
Government jobs have grown 25,000 in a time when the metro grew by more than 400,000. That's actually well behind most other industries. You're just wrong.
So you have no evidence of anything. Thanks.
Quote:
3. Again, I said nothing about Columbus failing.
I said falling, not failing, and I was referring to the % total to workforce.
Quote:
4. Greater Cleveland is a net donor region for the state. Let me break that
down for you: Despite any funds that are technically transferred from other
parts of the state to this region, we still send more away than we get back.
There is no benefit from being associated with the rest of the state; they
benefit from being associated with us, at least as far as tax revenues go.
Well, then good luck with your new state... Oh wait, that's never going to happen.
Quote:
5. I never said that any of those states were failing. I was simply pointing
out that those are all multi-modal states where the largest cities may be at
odds culturally and politically with one another and where these cities might
also benefit from being granted autonomy.
God forbid places and their people with differences actually attempt to get along. In any case, your point is destroyed by the fact that Sacramento does not hold any other cities back in California. Austin doesn't in Texas. Jacksonville doesn't in Florida, Albany in New York or pretty much any capital in any state. It's an excuse and nothing more. I think your city deserves better.
Columbus grew more than all those entire counties combined the last few years, let alone Franklin County. I don't know if you know about business or not, but I would put more money where it's going to go the furthest...
And (under such circumstances) so would I, so would I! Even though the first part of your comment's nothing more than an irrelevant distraction, the second part of your reply makes sense.
And that is: what businessperson WOULDN'Tinvest in a repression-proof capitol-city endowed with a huge, prestigious university; a self-proclaimed mecca of growth and prosperity: a city mainly devoted to the heavy-lifting of Ohio tax-dollars for its own purposes?
Posters, such as both myself and Clevelander17, have spelled out such things for you, but you simply will not comprehend nor concede. As, for myself (even though I do enjoy a challenge), I'll probably not waste much more unproductive time with you, namely because I've my own limits concerning time spent on endless, insane game-playing. (Others here will have to decide such things for themselves.)
Well, then good luck with your new state... Oh wait, that's never going to happen.
So... it's correct for Cleveland to donate to other parts of the state and not get anything back for it? Clevelanders don't have a right to complain about that? Honestly, I know it won't happen, but that doesn't mean it's a horrible idea. I really don't see how Cleveland actually benefits in any direct and tangible way from being part of Ohio that wouldn't be of benefit as part of any other state or a new state.
So... it's correct for Cleveland to donate to other parts of the state and not get anything back for it? Clevelanders don't have a right to complain about that? Honestly, I know it won't happen, but that doesn't mean it's a horrible idea. I really don't see how Cleveland actually benefits in any direct and tangible way from being part of Ohio that wouldn't be of benefit as part of any other state or a new state.
I said it earlier in the thread, but the solution with under-representation isn't separation but fixing the problem (gerrymandering by the ruling party). NE Ohio is vital to the state's diversity, and has contributed such great politicians as Metzenbaum, Glenn & Brown. Without it we'd have nothing but Tafts and Boehners.
So... it's correct for Cleveland to donate to other parts of the state and not get anything back for it? Clevelanders don't have a right to complain about that? Honestly, I know it won't happen, but that doesn't mean it's a horrible idea. I really don't see how Cleveland actually benefits in any direct and tangible way from being part of Ohio that wouldn't be of benefit as part of any other state or a new state.
Most of the Southern states are net users of federal dollars. Should we also seek to break up the nation as a whole because of that? I'm rather surprised that you have bought into the idea that the only way a place benefits from being part of a larger state is to basically get as much public assistance as possible.
And (under such circumstances) so would I, so would I! Even though the first part of your comment's nothing more than an irrelevant distraction, the second part of your reply makes sense.
And that is: what businessperson WOULDN'Tinvest in a repression-proof capitol-city endowed with a huge, prestigious university; a self-proclaimed mecca of growth and prosperity: a city mainly devoted to the heavy-lifting of Ohio tax-dollars for its own purposes?
Posters, such as both myself and Clevelander17, have spelled out such things for you, but you simply will not comprehend nor concede. As, for myself (even though I do enjoy a challenge), I'll probably not waste much more unproductive time with you, namely because I've my own limits concerning time spent on endless, insane game-playing. (Others here will have to decide such things for themselves.)
The idea here being that only Columbus alone has advantages and is the omly place a business should bother investing in. A very interesting opinion from as big a Cincy booster as you are. But that's what this thread is, I guess. Saying that Columbus is just too strong to compete with, so the only way to succeed is to physically separate.
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Missouri seems alright, as does PA.
