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I seriously wonder about this....my stbx was enabled- his mother let the kids party etc (drink/do drugs when they were 14) (This was in the 1950's and 60's) ...now she has several grandchildren with drug problems, arrests, etc,. I wonder if she ever reflects on what role she has played in all this?????
Was it just the generation of denial- when no one went to therapy?
Well, things were certainly much different in the '50s and '60s, and what was considered acceptable with respect to parenting is no exception. For example, not only was drinking and enabling kids to drink (especially behind closed doors) not nearly as taboo as today, but also smoking cigarettes, spanking, use of seat belts and safety seats, and general level of supervision of kids while they're playing outside. And I'm sure I could easily add to the list if I really gave it much thought.
That said, it is important to understand that with alcoholism, the drinking is only a symptom of the underlying problem.... call it a disease like the AMA does, or whatever. But the drinking is just a symptom. So I firmly believe that one does not "become alcoholic" because they drank too much, or because they were enabled or whatever... I believe they drink too much because they're alcoholics, they find partners who enable them because they're alcoholics.
Family dynanics in an alcoholic home are really tough to figure out... and the real killer is, the home can be an alcoholic home even if no one is drinking in that home. This is because the drinking is but a symptom of the underlying problem. And that is why, for example, a person may have alcoholic parents and be raised in an alcoholic home, choose to abstain from alcohol completely as an adult, and go on to raise alcoholic children. Yes, it may be hereditary, too.... I'm not sure that has been proven, but what is fairly certain is that alcoholism is a family disease. Whether it is a family disease because it is hereditary or because of learned behaviors and paradigms in parenting being set when we are children, or some combination of the two... the real malady is deeper than just the drinking, and it is entirely possible - and not even that uncommon - for one who is raised in an alcoholic home but who is not an active alcoholic him/her self, to manifest alcoholic behaviors and go on to raise children who are either alcoholics or who can strongly identify with other children of alcoholics.
I guess the underlying messaage here.... it may be very tempting to want to blame the MIL for the alcoholism on the stbx's side of the family, but I would argue she probably didn't even know what she didn't know about alcoholism. And it runs much deeper than simple denial, too. A lot of what we are now understanding about alcoholic families is also relatively new, especially when compared to what we knew in the '50s and '60s.
Finally... the level of acceptance of therapy is also relatively new. Back in the '50s and '60s, if one sought psychiatric treatment, either with drugs or counseling or both, it was usually kept very hush-hush. A secret. Because the person did not want to be perceived as "bad" or as a "nut". Just look at the backlash that resulted when Senator Eagleton's psychiatric problems became public knowledge back in the '72 presidential election. The public's reaction was either that the VP-hopeful was either a nutcase, or a "bad" person... in any event, entirely unsuitable for public office at that level.
Compare that to what we see today... it's now more or less chic to be in therapy. And we have a President who has pretty much admitted to a drinking problem. In the '80s we had a first lady who consulted an astrologer. And when Kitty Dukakis's drug and alcohol problems became public knowledge back in the '88 run, it really wasn't a negative for Mike Dukakis... it may have even worked a little to his benefit because people could see that as a real-world personal problem that knew no social barriers.
And before that, there was Betty Ford's problems with booze. She was probably one of the first highly public figures to gain real social acceptance in spite of admitting to her problem. She started up the Betty Ford Center, which pretty much opened the way for lots of celebrities to seek treatment. And the plethora of high-profile people that have sought treatment there since that time have, in my opinion, played a large role in the "stigma" of being an alcoholic not being today what it was in the '50s and '60s.
Good for you! I have to wait another day before I can give you more +!! In the case of babying a 50 year old man- yes, thats a bit much. I lost my mother at age 20. And i refuse to be a maid for someone.
I've been reading a lot of Alice Hoffman books lately (I'm on an Alice Hoffman kick) and one theme that seems to keep repeating is kids smoking. For anyone not familiar with her books, the themes tend to be suburbia and everyday life, with extraordinary things kicking in, sometimes in a big way and sometimes in a small way.
Anyway, in Seventh Heaven, the little boy--I think he's 8--is overly fascinated with fire and matches and in one scene he is begging to light her cigarette for her and she finally relents.
In two other books of hers that I'm reading, the female teenage character (there's always at least one, LOL) is constantly sneaking out for a cigarette and gradually, as she gets into her late teens, beginning to smoke around the parents, etc. The parents tend to give a half-hearted gasp at first and then just accept it, maybe with the occasional comment thrown in here or there when the kid lights up.
I DEFINITELY remember my parents doing the same sort of thing. (For perspective, I'm 40.) I don't recall it with drinking since nobody in my house really drank, but certain "rite of passage" or "initiations" were kind of held back from us more as a temporary than permanent thing. That's why the smoking parts in Hoffman's books all stand out for me. These things were considered "grown-up" things that you'd spank your child for at 10, or ground her for at 14, but pretty much allow by late teens. So maybe that's what you're seeing with grandparents today. They're not thinking it out to the extent of, for example, lung cancer/emphysema/heart disease, or with drinking, alcoholism, drunk driving, etc. And DEFINITELY I recall my parents laughing/smirking at seat belt campaigns, etc. So yep, I'd say it's largely due to the generation. Generally, parents today would die of a heart attack witnessing any of these things, myself included, but it's a different time now.
Last edited by JerZ; 09-20-2007 at 09:11 AM..
Reason: spelling...ugh
Location: Life here is not an Apollo Mission. Everyone calm down.
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Two days ago, my friend forwarded a photograph of her nephew to me. He is in his early 20's. I've changed this kid's diapers.
The photograph was taken by his father, of his son, who is now living under a bridge, 15 minutes from the family home. It is very telling and heartbreaking.
This kid was spoiled from his early teens. If he broke or lost his cell-phone, his grandparents (good people, but made bad choices) replaced it immediately. If he crashed his car, a new one appeared in the drive way within 24 hrs. Electronics, guitars, anything and everything he could possible want, he got with no effort. He never valued any of it. At one point, rich with "things" yet neglected in emotional love, this kid got into drugs.
He has been in and out of rehab at least 4 times.
He was a privileged college freshman until he started stealing from his friends to buy drugs. (His generous allowance wasn't enough.)
He was offered the family vacation home to live, within a month, cleaned it out, destroyed it and told everyone there had been a burglary.
He was kicked out of the Army (during a war) for failing three drug tests. He tested with a high IQ and was being groomed for a intelligence job in the Army.
He stole from every relative he had, cleaned his parents out of every electronic gadget at least three times.
He worked for his generous uncle and stole prescription drugs out to the cabinets of clients.
Anytime we spent with him, we had to put all of our valuables in our cars and keep the keys on us at all time.
No amount of talk, rehab, crying, love will break the grip that narcotics has on him.
When asked what he wanted he said...."I've tried life without drugs and I've tried life with drugs and I choose life with drugs." And now he is under a bridge. I haven't been able to take my eyes off the picture. We all know he will die and there is nothing anyone can do. We've all tried. This family is wealthy and has the resources to get him any amount of help he needs, but he's like a mouse in a maze, forever searching for that next piece of cheese.
Make your children work for what they have...they will value what they have and they will love you for it in the long run.
Thanks! It's hard to try to instill a work ethic and a sense of responsibility into your children only to have the rest of the family say we are being too tough!
I've been reading a lot of Alice Hoffman books lately (I'm on an Alice Hoffman kick) and one theme that seems to keep repeating is kids smoking. For anyone not familiar with her books, the themes tend to be suburbia and everyday life, with extraordinary things kicking in, sometimes in a big way and sometimes in a small way.
Anyway, in Seventh Heaven, the little boy--I think he's 8--is overly fascinated with fire and matches and in one scene he is begging to light her cigarette for her and she finally relents.
In two other books of hers that I'm reading, the female teenage character (there's always at least one, LOL) is constantly sneaking out for a cigarette and gradually, as she gets into her late teens, beginning to smoke around the parents, etc. The parents tend to give a half-hearted gasp at first and then just accept it, maybe with the occasional comment thrown in here or there when the kid lights up.
I DEFINITELY remember my parents doing the same sort of thing. (For perspective, I'm 40.) I don't recall it with drinking since nobody in my house really drank, but certain "rite of passage" or "initiations" were kind of held back from us more as a temporary than permanent thing. That's why the smoking parts in Hoffman's books all stand out for me. These things were considered "grown-up" things that you'd spank your child for at 10, or ground her for at 14, but pretty much allow by late teens. So maybe that's what you're seeing with grandparents today. They're not thinking it out to the extent of, for example, lung cancer/emphysema/heart disease, or with drinking, alcoholism, drunk driving, etc. And DEFINITELY I recall my parents laughing/smirking at seat belt campaigns, etc. So yep, I'd say it's largely due to the generation. Generally, parents today would die of a heart attack witnessing any of these things, myself included, but it's a different time now.
lol- initiations- binge drinking is cool too- just ask any dr. in the ER who sees a 17 yr old dead from Oxycontin and 24 beer bongs....I am glad that , possibly society is a bit smarter today....I think this explains why American divorces for all of us 30-50 are so high- screwed up parenting....
I feel sad for my stbx and blame his dysfunction on his parents- I hate denial, and that generation that was so afraid of psychiatry is now almoist gone. I am glad for this.
Parents, extended family, brothers and sisters all have an effect on us and shape our identities and beliefs. We would all be better off if they had been better people. However, we can change and we are responsible for our own actions. We don't have to follow the same path as other family members.
Some of you probably remember me talking about my MIL. Well, my husband's first clear childhood memory dates back to when he was 6 or so and came home from school to find his mother playing the piano naked with a strange man. 50 years later that memory is crystal clear in his mind. Even at 6, he knew it was wrong even though he didn't really understand what was going on. He never felt quite the same about his mother after that. That was his end of innocence.
Everyone has an excuse they can use to be dysfunctional. The people who really impress me are the ones who looked at their families failings and chose to be different.
As a parent, let me say that most of us do the best we can. Personally, I can't imagine ever letting my kids drink while underage. I've never subscribed to the "Oh, well at least they're doing it at home where I can see what they're doing" theory. Hello, you're the parent, the authority figure! To let a child do such a thing in your home is to surrender that authority, usually to the detriment of that child.
Why is Lindsey Lohan so screwed up? Because her mother would go out and party with her! Unbelievable...
I have two kids. One is going to UC Berkeley, and is doing great. The other one is floundering at a community college, and doesn't really have a direction. Am I great mother or an awful one? Maybe both?
I grew up with alcoholic parents, which is why I now struggle with intimacy and trust issues. However, I tried to take the best from my dad, who raised me and my brother, and leave the rest. For example, when I'd clean my room, he'd say, "It looks great! Now let's see how long you can keep it that way." Talk about a backhanded compliment! With my kids, I'd say, "It looks great!" and leave it at that. It's not rocket science.
By the way, when I finally became Series 7 and 66 licensed (securities broker exams), my dad's reaction was: "Wow, that's wonderful! And here I thought you'd never amount to anything!" Uh huh... There's a reason he lives in Florida, and I'm here in California!
Anyway, Sunny, to answer your original question, some parents do recognize how their behavior affects their children, and others would rather live in denial. Your MIL's refusal to talk about her son's alcoholism, etc. is a definite sign of that denial. I'm sorry you have to deal with that; it's an awful way to live.
This is why I've never gotten along with my ex's family, because they're very much into keeping secrets. When my ex molested our daughter, they would have been completely happy to see it swept under the rug, but I couldn't do that and still live with myself.
What is the ACA (Adult Children of Alcoholics) saying? You didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't cure it... *sigh* But I'm sooo glad you're getting away from him! Feel the freedom!!!
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- just ask any dr. in the ER who sees a 17 yr old dead from Oxycontin and 24 beer bongs....I am glad that , possibly society is a bit smarter today....I think this explains why American divorces for all of us 30-50 are so high- screwed up parenting.... 
