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Yes, as I said, the situation in Montreal and Quebec is not quite the same due to some unique factors. So you don't have the full power of the "consolidation push" here. Only a less powerful version - I do think it is still happening slowly though.
I'd say the absolute worst-case scenario is probably the status quo though. There are a number of factors like all those immigrant kids now in French schools, the collapse of native anglophone immigration (often replaced by more French-oriented immigrants) and the trickle of outmigrating Anglo-Montrealers that will continue to help French hold its own.
It's still not quite the same as French in Geneva or Flemish in Antwerpen, I concede.
Yes, as I said, the situation in Montreal and Quebec is not quite the same due to some unique factors. So you don't have the full power of the "consolidation push" here. Only a less powerful version - I do think it is still happening slowly though.
I'd say the absolute worst-case scenario is probably the status quo though. There are a number of factors like all those immigrant kids now in French schools, the collapse of native anglophone immigration (often replaced by more French-oriented immigrants) and the trickle of outmigrating Anglo-Montrealers that will continue to help French hold its own.
It's still not quite the same as French in Geneva or Flemish in Antwerpen, I concede.
I highly respect your view here. However, there are unique hurdles to keeping French viable in Quebec:
(1) the omnipresence of American popular culture, especially now that IT innovations make it available for everyone, and children of immigrants (and native Francophones) are really drawn to it;
(2) Quebec shares a long border with the Anglophonie--language statistics of (some) Quebec communities on the border with New Brunswick, Vermont and Ontario (where Francophones rub shoulders with Anglophones locally) show declines in French as used in the home;
(3) Montreal does not really have much of a Francophone hinterland to the south and west; and
(4) once the percentage of Francophones falls below a particular threshold, Anglicization quickly takes hold--I think it's once this percentage falls below 85.
I highly respect your view here. However, there are unique hurdles to keeping French viable in Quebec:
(1) the omnipresence of American popular culture, especially now that IT innovations make it available for everyone, and children of immigrants (and native Francophones) are really drawn to it;
I think this is a factor that is grossly exagerated by English-speakers. No, kids and teens in Quebec do not, generally, consume English-language cultural material, with the exception of music (and even then, they usually don't understand the lyrics). The vast majority of them do not watch American TV shows, and the movies are dubbed in French, so they have no real influence on the language front. Netflix shows are all dubbed in French, so again there is no need to watch them in English.
IT innovations? Meh. They're all available in French anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ner
(2) Quebec shares a long border with the Anglophonie--language statistics of (some) Quebec communities on the border with New Brunswick, Vermont and Ontario (where Francophones rub shoulders with Anglophones locally) show declines in French as used in the home;
Are you sure about that? I don't see how living close to the border influences the language spoken at home. There aren't much cross-border contacts, really. People in Rooses Point do not speak French because their neighbours 10km north in Lacolle do, and vice-versa.
most local Montrealers and long-time residents don't see that as a "positive" because:
1. Fast increasing real estate prices that are pricing out locals (these days a run-down triplex near Mont-Royal-Avenue can fetch as much as $800k just because some French buyer finds it "charming" and can easily afford with Euros)
2. Crowded streets, shops, cafes, restos
3. Rude manners and arrogant attitude towards locals from the French immigrants
The boost to French language is a plus, but it comes with many downsides as well.
What you describe very accurately reflects the majority opinion of the local people of Plateau Mont Royal, yet there will be other opinions besides the majority opinion, and each opinion will likely reflect the interests of the person that expresses such an opinion.
As Karl Marx said: „In a capitalist society, human action is largely influenced by economic self-interests and different milieus will have different interests.“
People from other arrondissements for whom PMR has the function of being cool or a beautiful place to be somewhat different than the rest, and not the function of being a place to live cheaply
Trendy people from PMR themselves who feel re-affirmed that PMR is the hippest place to be, as reflected by the numbers of fancy people who come, for them the high price is secondary to reputation and the high price itself is a sign of reputation and popularity
While, there are indeed some very rich French who buy real estates, I think the majority of French who come is no richer and no poorer than the average of local people in these districts. There are so many investors and buyers, French just happen to be larger group.
I'm not part of this group, I belong to the minority that likes the French and does not take part in French bashing.
I would very welcome a French boost espacially for Ville-Marie and it's anglo-areas.
How about keeping French stable first in Ville-Marie? Do you think a French boost would turn VM into something like PMR, what if I told you that a French boost would simply keep French stable?
Ville-Marie and the McGill greater ghetto area lost percentual francophone native speakers in the past 15 years and continues to anglicize. It's not normal for a city to have a city centre whose entire half is occupied by a minority. Under such conditions migrants will have many reasons not to integrate into the francophone community. So the French boost should compensate for the loss of French native speakers and preferably reach those levels French had 15 years ago.
15 years ago McGill and the other anglo establishments also all worked fine with some more % in French in their area, so they should get this % in French back, and will still function in English.
It's still not quite the same as French in Geneva or Flemish in Antwerpen, I concede.
Yes, Geneva is lucky to have France next to it and Antwerpen is lucky to have the Netherlands near it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ner
I highly respect your view here. However, there are unique hurdles to keeping French viable in Quebec:
(2) Quebec shares a long border with the Anglophonie--language statistics of (some) Quebec communities on the border with New Brunswick, Vermont and Ontario (where Francophones rub shoulders with Anglophones locally) show declines in French as used in the home;
(3) Montreal does not really have much of a Francophone hinterland to the south and west; and
I think this is a factor that is grossly exagerated by English-speakers. No, kids and teens in Quebec do not, generally, consume English-language cultural material, with the exception of music (and even then, they usually don't understand the lyrics). The vast majority of them do not watch American TV shows, and the movies are dubbed in French, so they have no real influence on the language front. Netflix shows are all dubbed in French, so again there is no need to watch them in English.
IT innovations? Meh. They're all available in French anyway.
I was really thinking of children of immigrants more than Francophones, but your point is well taken about Francophones. Akos Verboczy criticized the masses of children of immigrants at places like Dawson College and Concordia University for chasing the nebulous American pop culture dream, without really knowing what is in it for them, rather than identifying with what is really unique around them -- a native, localized Francophone culture that would really root them in place. That is what I was thinking of when I wrote that comment. I've been to Dawson College and it is a "Rainbow Nation" of students who express themselves in fluent (i.e., "native") N.A. English. Too, children of immigrants (Allophones) have much higher rates of consumption of U.S. cultural materials than peer-aged Francophones, if reports by the OQLF are to be believed. Unfortunately, if you care about the long-term viability of French in Quebec, this is a reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by begratto
Are you sure about that? I don't see how living close to the border influences the language spoken at home. There aren't much cross-border contacts, really. People in Rooses Point do not speak French because their neighbours 10km north in Lacolle do, and vice-versa.
I did say *some* and you notice I didn't include New York. I've been to Rouses Point and Lacolle. They are not linguistically integrated at all. I was thinking specifically of Stanstead, QC and Quebec towns on the Ottawa River, where Francophones live with proportionally strong Anglophone populations. I hazard to guess that the same phenomenon is eroding French in towns on the Gaspe Peninsula near New Brunswick, but I may be wrong here.
I was really thinking of children of immigrants more than Francophones, but your point is well taken about Francophones. Akos Verboczy criticized the masses of children of immigrants at places like Dawson College and Concordia University for chasing the nebulous American pop culture dream, without really knowing what is in it for them, rather than identifying with what is really unique around them -- a native, localized Francophone culture that would really root them in place. That is what I was thinking of when I wrote that comment. I've been to Dawson College and it is a "Rainbow Nation" of students who express themselves in fluent (i.e., "native") N.A. English. Too, children of immigrants (Allophones) have much higher rates of consumption of U.S. cultural materials than peer-aged Francophones, if reports by the OQLF are to be believed. Unfortunately, if you care about the long-term viability of French in Quebec, this is a reality.
I understand, and agree. But it depends on the immigrant background, really. Immigrants from Latin America, the Maghreb and sub-saharian Africa tend to consume Quebec cultural material, much, much more than people from previous waves of immigrations. Asians and Middle-Easterners, maybe not as much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ner
I did say *some* and you notice I didn't include New York. I've been to Rouses Point and Lacolle. They are not linguistically integrated at all. I was thinking specifically of Stanstead, QC and Quebec towns on the Ottawa River, where Francophones live with proportionally strong Anglophone populations. I hazard to guess that the same phenomenon is eroding French in towns on the Gaspe Peninsula near New Brunswick, but I may be wrong here.
Most of these places along the border were mostly English-speaking to begin with. If anything, I believe they are becoming more French-speaking as time passes, not less.
Most of these places along the border were mostly English-speaking to begin with. If anything, I believe they are becoming more French-speaking as time passes, not less.
If you look at the latest StatCan mother tongue vs home language statistics, French is clearly losing ground to English in linguistically mixed border towns in Quebec, but this may be time-lagged, as in the language transfers occurred a generation or two ago, but this is no longer happening among children. It would not surprise me, though, if in communities with significant Anglophone populations, young Francophone kids bear the brunt of bilingualism (i.e., they speak English with neighborhood Anglophone children and not the other way around). I read an account of a Francophone family that moved to a West-Island neighborhood from some other region of Quebec, but later decided to move to eastern Montreal because it was so difficult to raise their children in French in Ouest-de-l'ÃŽle Montreal.
Are you sure about that? I don't see how living close to the border influences the language spoken at home. There aren't much cross-border contacts, really. People in Rooses Point do not speak French because their neighbours 10km north in Lacolle do, and vice-versa.
The area between Dorval Airport and Hudson, is an Anglicization corridor, that means that it significantly influences the language spoken (everyday language) at home: Native francophones give up French and switch more often towards English than vice versa.
Some examples:
The first figure is the figure for French as native language. The one in ( ) is for French as the language most spoken at home.
I was really thinking of children of immigrants more than Francophones, but your point is well taken about Francophones. Akos Verboczy criticized the masses of children of immigrants at places like Dawson College and Concordia University for chasing the nebulous American pop culture dream, without really knowing what is in it for them, rather than identifying with what is really unique around them -- a native, localized Francophone culture that would really root them in place.
I've been to Rouses Point and Lacolle. They are not linguistically integrated at all. I was thinking specifically of Stanstead, QC and Quebec towns on the Ottawa River, where Francophones live with proportionally strong Anglophone populations. I hazard to guess that the same phenomenon is eroding French in towns on the Gaspe Peninsula near New Brunswick, but I may be wrong here.
I really like and adore Verboczy's statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by begratto
I understand, and agree. But it depends on the immigrant background, really. Immigrants from Latin America, the Maghreb and sub-saharian Africa tend to consume Quebec cultural material, much, much more than people from previous waves of immigrations. Asians and Middle-Easterners, maybe not as much.
Most of these places along the border were mostly English-speaking to begin with. If anything, I believe they are becoming more French-speaking as time passes, not less.
French is clearly losing ground to English in linguistically mixed border towns in Quebec, but this may be time-lagged, as in the language transfers occurred a generation or two ago, but this is no longer happening among children.
I think a lot is being made of Quebec's border areas. I am familiar with most of the areas along the border and the only area where you can see there cross-border anglo-homogenization going on in to the west of Gatineau in Pontiac country (places like Shawville with Pembroke on the other side).
From the western Gatineau city limits all the way east to the outskirts of greater Montreal the Quebec side of the Ottawa River is majority francophone and "franco-normative" for lack of better term. The anglo share of the population ebbs and flows but it's never to the point where, say, the local Tim Hortons operates in English. Nor do town councils and anything else that is collective or community-based.
About 45 minutes east of Ottawa even if you're in Ontario the south shore of the river also becomes modestly franco-normative with admittedly a decent minority presence of English. This persists to Hawkesbury and also along the northern segment of the border in the "wedge" just to the west of Rigaud. Though the southern part of the border in the wedge towards the St. Lawrence River is francophone on the Quebec side, and anglophone on the Ontario side.
Then if you cross the St. Lawrence the border with American states tends to be pretty francophone on the Quebec side almost all the way to Maine, in spite of the places and only a handful of towns that are still primarily anglo and are holdovers from the era when the Eastern Townships were all anglo.
The border area with Madawaska NB and ME near across from Edmundston is basically 100% francophone in Quebec, 98% francophone in New Brunswick even in the range of 70% francophone (still) in Maine USA.
I live in the biggest border city in Quebec and I know dozens of families with kids, maybe hundreds by association, and have never heard of anyone doing this.
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May I ask, are you anglophone or francophone or allophone? Are you Italian migrant in Montréal?
