French is drastically deteriorating in Montréal, and its suburbs are anglicizing: Soon an Anglo-city? (real estate, hotels)

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Being francophone and being Canadian are not mutually exclusive.

In fact the place called Canada started off its existence under that name as a French colony.

So you are claiming to be a proud Canadian? and would think it a dark day if Quebec ever separated from the rest of Canada.?
As for"Canada started off its existence under that name as a French colony" the first nations people might disagree with you on that claim.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jambo101

So you are claiming to be a proud Canadian? and would think it a dark day if Quebec ever separated from the rest of Canada.?
.

This is just more silliness, witch-hunting and pigeonholing. Not worth a response!

[QuebecOpec]

Originally Posted by jambo101

So you are claiming to be a proud Canadian? and would think it a dark day if Quebec ever separated from the rest of Canada.?
As for"Canada started off its existence under that name as a French colony" the first nations people might disagree with you on that claim.

I think Acajack wants to say that it is possible to identify as primary Québécois or francophone and secondary as Canadian, as long as French remains the predominant language in Québec, as long as Bill 101 remains strong enough, as long as Ottawa refrains form further anglicisizing Québec, and as long as it continues to be an equal language on the federal level. So Québécois/francophone and Canadian are not mutually exclusive according to Acajack like in Switzerland, where you can be both Swiss and Swiss German or Ticinese and Swiss, though he wishes Canada to be more like Switzerland because Canada does not grant Québec as many rights as Switzerland does for its cantons.


I think Acajack is of Franco-Ontarian origin which is not the same as Québécois, he has more ties to Anglo-Canada (and Ottawa is just across the river), so he will feel somehow maybe more Canadian. In Gatineau, I think people feel more Canadian than in the rest of Québec because it's opposite to the capital and Ottawa serves as the main centre, so they have a lot of contact with Anglo-Canada. Maybe Acajack can come and clarify that.

I personally, do not identify as Canadian at all. Neither do I identify as French Canadian (I identify with "French" in it, but not with "Canadian"). I identify as Québécois.

Here's what I identify with:

- Québécois
- francophone
- L'Amérique francophone
- western world
- Nouvelle France


Here's what I DON'T identify with:

- Canada
- French Canadian
- Anglo America


Sometimes I think that if I had to choose only between feeling more Canadian or between feeling more US-American, I would choose feeling more US-American. There is so much scientific literature in English as well as much media content in English, but where is it from? It's from the US and not Anglo-Canada. And even if we have media content in French in Québec, often it is just translated from the United States. So the United States have a greater influence on Québec than Anglo-Canada. I identify more with New York State than with Anglo-Canada. I know that Anglo-Canada is extremely heavily influenced by the US and therefore very much like the US, but the United States are ultimately the original country, the US are the center of the anglophone world with the greatest influence on global culture, not Anglo-Canada, the US exercise a greater power on Québec than Anglo-Canada. The media reality in Québec is determined by media from Québec, the United States and France. Media from the rest of the world, including Anglo-Canada, are much behind.

So, here's how I identify, ranked by importance:

-Québécois
- francophone
- Montréalais
[BIG GAP]
- L'Amérique francophone
- western world
- US-America
- France
- francophone Europe
- Nouvelle France
- New York State
- New England
[BIG GAP]
- Europe in general
[BIG GAP again]
- Canada

I can accept Québec as being in Canada, as long as French is doing well and great in Québec, still this does not mean that I will identify as Canadian.
With only roughly half of Montréal Island's population being native francophone and the omnipresence of English there, it is very hard for me to accept Québec as part of Canada and I don't feel Canadian at all. My primary wish is not necessarily independence (although independence would definitely help us very much to secure and empower French and Québec would become more relevant in the world, I endorse that, just think of Luxemburg, Luxemburg is small but it gets much, much, much more attention than any other subdivsion of a similar size and it has more power than subdivsions of the same size, Québec would be like Austria), my primary wish is that French is doing as well in Québec as it is in Wallonia, if it could flourish like that in Canada, I would be okay with Canada.If French was doing as well in Québec as in Wallonia, maybe I could identify as Canadian. Canada was indeed discovered by the French, however it was called Nouvelle France. Later, Anglo-Canada/Great Britain oppressed Québec and anglicized it and it never gave Québec the full right to decide about its language, and undermined Québec's language laws with the English rights in the Canadian constituiton. There are many reasons to dislike Canada. Especially, it is unforgivable that Ottawa spend much much more money on advertising unity and that it scared older francophones, Canada nowadays is only still a united country because Ottawa used very unfair measures to ensure that Canada will be united. They paid people from Ontario to protest and demonstrate for unity in Montréal... They gave money to Canadian airlines to make flights to Montréal and advertise unity. The referendum 1995 was not fair and I will never forgive Ottawa for that.

For me the Charter of the French language has a greater meaning than the Canadian constitution. The Canadian constitution is just a blablabla imitator of the UN declaration of human rights, which is not special for Canada. The countries of Europe and maybe the US deserve honour for their declaration and constituions, because they were the first ones who have created them, but Canada just took them over and deserves no honour for a constituion that is tyrannizing Québec.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by QuebecOpec

I think Acajack wants to say that it is possible to identify as primary Québécois or francophone and secondary as Canadian, as long as French remains the predominant language in Québec, as long as Bill 101 remains strong enough, as long as Ottawa refrains form further anglicisizing Québec, and as long as it continues to be an equal language on the federal level. So Québécois/francophone and Canadian are not mutually exclusive according to Acajack like in Switzerland, where you can be both Swiss and Swiss German or Ticinese and Swiss, though he wishes Canada to be more like Switzerland because Canada does not grant Québec as many rights as Switzerland does for its cantons.


I think Acajack is of Franco-Ontarian origin which is not the same as Québécois, he has more ties to Anglo-Canada (and Ottawa is just across the river), so he will feel somehow maybe more Canadian. In Gatineau, I think people feel more Canadian than in the rest of Québec because it's opposite to the capital and Ottawa serves as the main centre, so they have a lot of contact with Anglo-Canada. Maybe Acajack can come and clarify that.
.

Most people who have been here for a while know that I am a francophone who grew up in Anglo-Canada. I've lived in five provinces - Quebec is the fifth. I've lived in Quebec for the latter half of my life but I was born and spent all of my formative years in "Anglo-Canada". I went to a mix of English first, French first and French immersion schools, depending on where we lived.


Perhaps there is a degree of "sentimentality" for the Great Chrétien/Trudeau CANADA that some see in my posts but I can tell you that any level of sentimentality I have is still atypically low for someone with my background. (I base this on the family and friends that I have who are francophones still living outside Quebec.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jambo101

As for"Canada started off its existence under that name as a French colony" the first nations people might disagree with you on that claim.

Yet another classic retort. I am more supportive of the rights of indigenous peoples than 99% of the people who have ever levelled that counter-argument at me.


The reality is that indigenous peoples never considered themselves as "Canadians" back in the day nor did they call their homeland "Canada". They were Mohawks living in Mohawk-land, Hurons living in Huron-land, Cree living in Cree-land, etc.


The first people in the history of humanity to call themselves "Canadians" (Canadiens, actually) were the French-speaking colonists of New France. That's with whom the name originated.

[jambo101]

Good post Quebecopec and something i thought was going to come from AJ rather than the feeble deflection in response to my question (#122), whether one is Canadian and if not whats the point of a province staying in Canada if it doesnt feel itself to be Canadian.
Personally where i live in Canada is irrelevant, to me i'm Canadian end of story.
Also this was Indian land long before a few French came over and proclaimed it a colony of France ,also by the looks of things it obviously didnt turn out as expected for the colony as those dastardly Anglos now number 30+ million and the French comprise a mere 7 million isolated almost solely in Quebec and according to opec the remains of the culture is in decline.
Separation is the key to a bright and prosperous future for Quebec.

[silverkris]

Originally Posted by QuebecOpec

Yes, I know, not only he, the entire Québec élite is nowadays fluent in English and sends their kids to private English school. Soon there will even be an English only TV debate for the upcoming elections and all major parties agreed to participate, even the PQ. I just wonder, what is the PQ going to tell anglophones..? They won't vote for the PQ. Is it worth it to scare away francophone voters for the theoretical gain of 1 or 2% anglo-votes? I really can't understand the PQ. So, as far as I know there be will one English TV debate and two TV debates in French: Anglos once again are overproportionally empowered. It's not just the Anglos..they know, migrants will watch it, too.
The Parti Québécois used to be very pro-French and national but over time the PQ became mellow and more mellow.
They don't even want to restrict access to English CEGEP. Can you imagine? Yes, the PQ wants to allow access to English CEGEP.
English CEGEP in general is not a problem for Québec, but it is on Montréal Island where 40% of students attends English CEGEPs. So, the PQ could have shown up with a differentiated plan and restrict it to 25% only on M.I. only, but they are not even doing that.

I think the PQ should not think that their traditional pro-French voter base will completely vote for them during the next elections. I think some, if not many, will vote for Coalition Avenir Québec or another alternative party.
It is quesitonable whether the PQ loses voters because voters have become tired of French language issues or whether voters have become tired of the PQ who has failed to secure French in the past 20 years.
So, I think CAQ is going to win.


The Québec élite has accepted that English is the number one language and is now doing little to secure French. Even France's president Macron is now excessively using English in press conferences and in overseas or business meetings in France and foreign countries. This would have been unimaginable 20 years ago. Macron even said a very shocking sentence: "You must speak English to secure French".
Protect French by speaking English, Macron says during Couillard visit | Montreal Gazette

The élite of francophone countries all across the globe is now switching from a traditional France-typical mentality of "I speak and save French whenenver I can" towards a Dutch-typical mentality of "I speak English whenever I can 'cause I know it and my conversational partner, too".


Being fluent in English per se does not have to be detrimental to the future of French, they both correlate though in a way that is not favorable for French.

Being fluent in English in addition to being fluent in French does not automatically mean that French is replaced. In European countries like Flanders, people often have very good English skills, - Dutch remains the everyday language thanks to Flanders language laws, English is functionally used, Dutch is generally used. The use of Standard German in Switzerland does mean that Swiss German disappears, because Standard German is functionally used and Swiss German is generally used and this has been the case for over a century in Switzerland.

I must admit, though, that the bilingual situation in Québec is different from the one in Switzerland and Flanders and it has more factors that play for the disadvantage of French.
Montréal has two fully established linguistic spheres, that can overlap and interact with each other, but also can work completely seperated from each other and bilingualism gives the people the choice to choose in which established linguistic sphere they want to be, thus an established linguistic sphere may become stronger or weaker over time, untill finally one lingustic sphere disappears. - This is not possible in Basel or Antwerp within the next 50 years, in Montréal it is theoretically possible.

I love Switzerland I want to be ruled by Bern, not Ottawa. Let's get the Swiss constitution.

What's interesting - you refer to Flanders (Flemish or Dutch speaking) and Wallonia (French speaking) but you never say Belgium. You don't recognize Belgium as a sovereign nation?

[QuebecOpec]

Originally Posted by jambo101

Good post Quebecopec and something i thought was going to come from AJ rather than the feeble deflection in response to my question (#122), whether one is Canadian and if not whats the point of a province staying in Canada if it doesnt feel itself to be Canadian.
Personally where i live in Canada is irrelevant, to me i'm Canadian end of story.
Also this was Indian land long before a few French came over and proclaimed it a colony of France ,also by the looks of things it obviously didnt turn out as expected for the colony as those dastardly Anglos now number 30+ million and the French comprise a mere 7 million isolated almost solely in Quebec and according to opec the remains of the culture is in decline.
Separation is the key to a bright and prosperous future for Quebec.

France's colonialism was disastrous and a complete mismanagement, it totally failed.

Russia was a very smart and intelligent country, it managed to colonize Siberia and integrate it into the mainland and now Russia is huge and everywhere there Russian is spoken.
Portugal, a country of only 10 million, managed to get Brazil and now Brazil has over 200 million Portugese speakers. That's a tremendous success for Portugal.
The UK yielded 300 Million English speakers in North America and Spain even yielded 400 million Spanish speakers, creating a large Hispanidad world. And France? Yeah, it totally failed.

That being said, I do not endorse colonialism in any way and think that any form of colonialsm has to be condemned and that no one should be proud of colonial possessions.

I personally like the French and favor migration from France to Québec, but I know some Québécois who don't like the French because they think that France doesn't care about them, neither in the past nor now, and sometimes even I have the impression that Vermont and New York State care more about Québec than does France. (France rarely does ever care about Québec)

So Québec is all that's left from Nouvelle France (with the exception of St. Pierre and Miquelon).
And that makes Québec so special and Montréal so important, because we only have one metropolis.
If theoretically San Diego and Phoenix turned totally Hispanic, the US would still have many other Anglo metropolises and US-American would remain strong.
If Montréal turns English or not-French because of mass migration, we have no other French metropolis in North America and it will have a huge impact on the rest of Québec. Montréal Island decides the future of Québec, Montréal Island has 24% of Québec's total population and Ville-Marie is by far the largest business centre in all of Québec, by such a large margin that the rest looks like a village. That's why any kind of decline of French in Montréal is horrific and unacceptable and why Bill 101 is holy in Québec.

Just by the way, there was one country that even sucked more in colonizing: The Dutch.
If I recall correctly, the Dutch had founded New York. New York City, the world's greatest city would have been a Dutch-speaking city. So yeah the Dutch and the French really sucked. But Montréal (still) is the second-largest largest French-speaking city, so we do not feel like an irrelevant periphery of France or something like that.

[QuebecOpec]

Originally Posted by silverkris

What's interesting - you refer to Flanders (Flemish or Dutch speaking) and Wallonia (French speaking) but you never say Belgium. You don't recognize Belgium as a sovereign nation?

For me Belgium is an artifical state like Canada. Switzerland is not artifical in my opinion because Switzerland is based on the believe in real direct democracy and not on languages. Also in Switzerland, the French-speaking and German-speaking and Italian-speaking part are all highly advanced, whereas Wallonia seems to be behind Flanders.

Though, since Belgium grants Flanders the awesome right to be Dutch and Wallonia to be French, without mysterious super constitutional rights for the other language group, if I was in Wallonia or Flanders, I probably would identify with Wallonia/Flanders first and second with Belgium, unlike with Canada where Canadian citizens are entitled to English language services in Québec.

Flanders probably would have kicked Wallonia out of Belgium and re-name it into Flanders or self-declared independence, if it wasn't for Brussels (the third region) and its complex relations with Wallonia and Flemish Brabant.
Well... As long as Wallonia and Flanders are in the European Union, most of their laws will come from Brussels either way. So, whether they stay in Belgium or not, not much will change.

There's also a difference between Belgium and Canada: in Belgium the French and Dutch part are more equal to each other (39% / 60%), whereas in Canada the francophones are increasingly becoming irrelevant (less than 25%, soon below 20%...maybe in some decades there will be more Chinese speakers than francophones in Canada). I think in Belgium often the agreement of both the French and Dutch part are necessary, putting them on parity while Québec can simply be overvoted by Anglo-Canada... OK, I admit the 1% German-speaking part in Belgium can be overvoted, too, lol.
And in Switzerland there are many cantons who are intellectually so far advanced that they don't base their votes on exploiting or dominating another linguistic area, instead they base their votes on mutual ideas and beliefs. Since Switzerland solved the language problem by territorial principe, language unevenness is not a major issue and Iwish Canada would also allow Québec these rights that the Swiss cantons and Wallonia and Flanders have.

[2ner]

Originally Posted by QuebecOpec

Just by the way, there was one country that even sucked more in colonizing: The Dutch.
If I recall correctly, the Dutch had founded New York. New York City, the world's greatest city would have been a Dutch-speaking city. So yeah the Dutch and the French really sucked. But Montréal (still) is the second-largest largest French-speaking city, so we do not feel like an irrelevant periphery of France or something like that.

Don't say that to a Surinamer. I spent a month in Paramaribo years back. Everyone speaks Dutch there... most as a first language. It is not under threat at all. Of course, there is still resentment towards the former colonizers, but Surinamese-Dutch is now spoken by Creoles (Afro-Surinamers), East Indians (Hindoestanen), Indonesians (Javanen), Maroons (descendants of escaped African slaves to interior Suriname) living in the city, Chinese, and the now large mixed-race population. There are a lot of English-speaking Guyanese in the capital, but my sense is that they are quite marginalized because most don't speak Dutch.


Now, if you had said that about Sweden or Italy... or Germany for that matter, I would only have been able to agree! Come to think of it, the Irish weren't too good at colonizing either... but then again, it's been a while since I've been to South Boston.