Army Security Clearance Question (reserve, training, officers, positions)
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I am interested in joining the Army Reserve. I want to go for 68W (Health Care Specialist). I am in my later 20's.
I've been googling but I'm getting conflicting answers, so maybe people here can set the record straight.
From what I understand, 68W doesn't require a security clearance. It's on the list of non-clearance jobs. But, I've also read that depending on your unit, you might wind up needing a secret clearance anyway, or that once you make NCO level you must have one. Which is it?
Secondly, if they do a secret clearance investigation, do they go digging through medical records? There is no possible way that I can possibly list out every single hospital and/or doctor I have seen in my entire life for every possible ailment. I don't want to be rejected based on not telling every single thing, but if I honestly don't know that makes it kind of hard.
Finally, on the clearance form, they ask about if you have ever attended counseling--but you only have to list the name/contact info of the counselor or therapist if it was court-ordered or because of violence or substance abuse. Mine was because when I was a teenager I couldn't get along with my mom (but not violent or abusive--it was just to learn how to deal with each other without always yelling). Then later (even as currently as right now) I had counseling because of a relationship gone bad. So, would I have to list these? I wasn't wanting to list them for MEPS but I know I should--but if I do I know they are going to make me wait and get statements from my former therapists and wait on a waiver. This is a problem because the one from when I was a teenager retired a few years ago and I have no idea where to find her.
Regardless though, since it wasn't due to violence or substance abuse, I'd be OK saying "yes" on the MEPS form but not listing them on the clearance form, right? I mean, the clearance form is specific and says to answer yes unless it was marital/grief or whatever. I mean, my recruiter said that even on the MEPS form I don't need to disclose it since the kind of counseling I've been to isn't really what they're looking to flag.
The whole process is complicated and I just don't want to do or say the wrong thing. I know that they only ask about whether I'd be a threat to national security and all that, and not about the specifics of the counseling, so it should definitely be fine, but for some reason I still feel worried about it or that they'd deny the clearance if I can't track down the one therapist who is no longer practicing.
Also, with my ex boyfriend, I had a bunch of drama that involved other people--nothing criminal of course, but I know they wouldn't have nice things to say if agents contacted them. Will I have a chance to explain this if I'm questioned about it?
I just feel really nervous about the whole thing. I have clean financial and criminal records and no foreign contacts so I should be fine, but I'm just nervous about it anyway. I am looking to do ROTC in grad school with the GI bill once I do basic training and AIT, so it's really important that someday I can be clearanced since all officers need one.
I am interested in joining the Army Reserve. I want to go for 68W (Health Care Specialist). I am in my later 20's.
I've been googling but I'm getting conflicting answers, so maybe people here can set the record straight.
From what I understand, 68W doesn't require a security clearance. It's on the list of non-clearance jobs. But, I've also read that depending on your unit, you might wind up needing a secret clearance anyway, or that once you make NCO level you must have one. Which is it?
There are two kinds of 'clearance' jobs:
1) MOSes and grades that inherently require a security clearance to hold.
2) Certain positions in certain units that require a security clearance.
Here's an example. An 11B does not need a security clearance to hold the MOS.
IIRC, an 11B assigned to a Ranger Regiment does. If that 11B lost his clearance, he couldn't stay in that job requiring a clearance-but could stay an 11B.
An intel analyst does need a clearance. If they lose the clearance, they will have to reclassify to a different MOS.
Second, a vanilla secret clearance can sometimes be done without an interview at all. That's all most people in the Army, including line commissioned officers and medical people who are cleared, need to hold. TS or higher get the full treatment with interviews and full background investigation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper Potts
Secondly, if they do a secret clearance investigation, do they go digging through medical records? There is no possible way that I can possibly list out every single hospital and/or doctor I have seen in my entire life for every possible ailment. I don't want to be rejected based on not telling every single thing, but if I honestly don't know that makes it kind of hard.
They go digging through medical records if they think you are hiding something or something sets of a flag. You're not expected to seriously list every single doctor and ailment, just the major ones to the best of your recollection based on the questions asked on the form (e.g., last 7 years-or 10 for some things, or forever for a few things).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper Potts
Finally, on the clearance form, they ask about if you have ever attended counseling--but you only have to list the name/contact info of the counselor or therapist if it was court-ordered or because of violence or substance abuse. Mine was because when I was a teenager I couldn't get along with my mom (but not violent or abusive--it was just to learn how to deal with each other without always yelling). Then later (even as currently as right now) I had counseling because of a relationship gone bad. So, would I have to list these? I wasn't wanting to list them for MEPS but I know I should--but if I do I know they are going to make me wait and get statements from my former therapists and wait on a waiver. This is a problem because the one from when I was a teenager retired a few years ago and I have no idea where to find her.
Read the SF86 again. The question is phrased this way:
"In the last 7 years, have you consulted with a mental health professional (psychiatrist, psychologist, counselor, etc.) or have you consulted with another health care provider about a mental health related condition?
If you answered 'yes', provide the dates of treatment and the name and address of the therapist or doctor below, unless the consultation(s) involved only marital, family, or grief counseling, not related to violence by you."
Read that carefully. It doesn't say hold back-for the last 7 years. If the stuff from your teenage years > 7 years ago, you don't have to list it. If the other stuff was < 7 years ago, you have to list it-but if it's marital, family, or grief counseling, you won't have to give details and they really won't dig.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper Potts
Regardless though, since it wasn't due to violence or substance abuse, I'd be OK saying "yes" on the MEPS form but not listing them on the clearance form, right? I mean, the clearance form is specific and says to answer yes unless it was marital/grief or whatever. I mean, my recruiter said that even on the MEPS form I don't need to disclose it since the kind of counseling I've been to isn't really what they're looking to flag.
No, you would not be okay saying "yes" on the MEPS form and then leaving it out on the clearance form.
You have to understand the clearance process: they are not looking for things you've done, and they don't really judge your character. I quite literally know guys with misdemeanors, drug use, and money issues in their past who are high-end cleared. The deal is they look for if you have a propensity to withhold the truth. The theory as I understand it-If you hide it from the investigator for this simple investigation, are you going to hide "losing" classified or money issues or sex issues or whatever in the future, making you vulnerable to blackmail or likely to do other unethical things? If I were an investigator and figured out you'd, um, "shaded" the truth on two official forms differently, I would report that and you would have real problems getting approved for a clearance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper Potts
The whole process is complicated and I just don't want to do or say the wrong thing. I know that they only ask about whether I'd be a threat to national security and all that, and not about the specifics of the counseling, so it should definitely be fine, but for some reason I still feel worried about it or that they'd deny the clearance if I can't track down the one therapist who is no longer practicing.
Just say everything. It is far better to tell them everything, show sincere remorse if it was your fault, and explain why it won't or can't happen again, than to be caught withholding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper Potts
Also, with my ex boyfriend, I had a bunch of drama that involved other people--nothing criminal of course, but I know they wouldn't have nice things to say if agents contacted them. Will I have a chance to explain this if I'm questioned about it?
Yes, investigators spend some time clarifying information like this and making sure you have the chance to explain things from your side. They look for a "whole person" picture and are trained to figure out if maybe relationship issues are shading what people are saying about you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper Potts
I just feel really nervous about the whole thing. I have clean financial and criminal records and no foreign contacts so I should be fine, but I'm just nervous about it anyway. I am looking to do ROTC in grad school with the GI bill once I do basic training and AIT, so it's really important that someday I can be clearanced since all officers need one.
Don't be. The primary reasons security clearances are denied that I have personally seen: current, ongoing alcohol problems; unresolvable debt issues; lying to or misleading investigators. Let me repeat that last: lying to or misleading investigators. Bluntly, that is exactly what you are proposing doing here in a couple of places and I highly, highly recommend that you don't do that. Tell them the truth, tell it all as the form asks for it, and give them the complete, unexpurgated explanation if you are interviewed-you will be fine.
From what I understand, 68W doesn't require a security clearance.
Technically all US Military personnel have a confidential clearance if needed. You really only get a "clearance" if you have a "need to know"....
NAC or NACI (National Agency Check, National Agency Check with Inquires) are done with all US Military, thos are started when you enter the military. Commanders can grant Confidential for any active duty military.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper Potts
Secondly, if they do a secret clearance investigation, do they go digging through medical records?
If they need to they will. It depends on what those medical records say... It depends on what you say during the interview... It depends on what might be disclosed during the investigation...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper Potts
Also, with my ex boyfriend, I had a bunch of drama that involved other people--nothing criminal of course, but I know they wouldn't have nice things to say if agents contacted them. Will I have a chance to explain this if I'm questioned about it?
You might. If it really become an issue. How many people don't have a certain amount of "drama" in their past?
Things change. Most people worry too much and try to talk away the facts. You might be interviewed prior to the actual investigation starting, they go over the security forms.
You don't have to worry about the fingerprints, most people have no problems there (That's a joke, OK? Smile)
Good luck...
Rich
Last edited by Poncho_NM; 10-24-2011 at 08:55 PM..
There are two kinds of 'clearance' jobs:
1) MOSes and grades that inherently require a security clearance to hold.
2) Certain positions in certain units that require a security clearance.
Here's an example. An 11B does not need a security clearance to hold the MOS.
IIRC, an 11B assigned to a Ranger Regiment does. If that 11B lost his clearance, he couldn't stay in that job requiring a clearance-but could stay an 11B.
An intel analyst does need a clearance. If they lose the clearance, they will have to reclassify to a different MOS.
Second, a vanilla secret clearance can sometimes be done without an interview at all. That's all most people in the Army, including line commissioned officers and medical people who are cleared, need to hold. TS or higher get the full treatment with interviews and full background investigation.
They go digging through medical records if they think you are hiding something or something sets of a flag. You're not expected to seriously list every single doctor and ailment, just the major ones to the best of your recollection based on the questions asked on the form (e.g., last 7 years-or 10 for some things, or forever for a few things).
Read the SF86 again. The question is phrased this way:
"In the last 7 years, have you consulted with a mental health professional (psychiatrist, psychologist, counselor, etc.) or have you consulted with another health care provider about a mental health related condition?
If you answered 'yes', provide the dates of treatment and the name and address of the therapist or doctor below, unless the consultation(s) involved only marital, family, or grief counseling, not related to violence by you."
Read that carefully. It doesn't say hold back-for the last 7 years. If the stuff from your teenage years > 7 years ago, you don't have to list it. If the other stuff was < 7 years ago, you have to list it-but if it's marital, family, or grief counseling, you won't have to give details and they really won't dig.
No, you would not be okay saying "yes" on the MEPS form and then leaving it out on the clearance form.
You have to understand the clearance process: they are not looking for things you've done, and they don't really judge your character. I quite literally know guys with misdemeanors, drug use, and money issues in their past who are high-end cleared. The deal is they look for if you have a propensity to withhold the truth. The theory as I understand it-If you hide it from the investigator for this simple investigation, are you going to hide "losing" classified or money issues or sex issues or whatever in the future, making you vulnerable to blackmail or likely to do other unethical things? If I were an investigator and figured out you'd, um, "shaded" the truth on two official forms differently, I would report that and you would have real problems getting approved for a clearance.
Just say everything. It is far better to tell them everything, show sincere remorse if it was your fault, and explain why it won't or can't happen again, than to be caught withholding.
Yes, investigators spend some time clarifying information like this and making sure you have the chance to explain things from your side. They look for a "whole person" picture and are trained to figure out if maybe relationship issues are shading what people are saying about you.
Don't be. The primary reasons security clearances are denied that I have personally seen: current, ongoing alcohol problems; unresolvable debt issues; lying to or misleading investigators. Let me repeat that last: lying to or misleading investigators. Bluntly, that is exactly what you are proposing doing here in a couple of places and I highly, highly recommend that you don't do that. Tell them the truth, tell it all as the form asks for it, and give them the complete, unexpurgated explanation if you are interviewed-you will be fine.
Above is exactly right -
Often they are looking for an "achilles heel" so to speak. Anything that makes you likely to do something bad or vulerable to brides or blackmail.
I've seen alot of people lose/not receive clearances for large amounts of unsecured debt....
Read the SF86 again. The question is phrased this way:
"In the last 7 years, have you consulted with a mental health professional (psychiatrist, psychologist, counselor, etc.) or have you consulted with another health care provider about a mental health related condition?
If you answered 'yes', provide the dates of treatment and the name and address of the therapist or doctor below, unless the consultation(s) involved only marital, family, or grief counseling, not related to violence by you."
Read that carefully. It doesn't say hold back-for the last 7 years. If the stuff from your teenage years > 7 years ago, you don't have to list it. If the other stuff was < 7 years ago, you have to list it-but if it's marital, family, or grief counseling, you won't have to give details and they really won't dig.
Yeah, see, what made me think I wouldn't have to share it at all was the "unless." My counseling was NOT related to violence and it was NOT court ordered. It was strictly due to problems that my ex were having in the relationship with communication, re-integration when he returned from a deployment, etc. It seems like there's a grey area because since we weren't married it doesn't count as marital, but he's not family or whatever either...but the problems we had were equivalent to marital problems. *grumble*
Good to know I won't have to track down a retired counselor from my teenage years who probably moved to some hut in Tahiti or something, who knows.
I'm meeting with my recruiter tomorrow to get taped and also to find out what job options are open to me. I really do want 68W but I'm open to other possibilities.
Yeah, see, what made me think I wouldn't have to share it at all was the "unless." My counseling was NOT related to violence and it was NOT court ordered. It was strictly due to problems that my ex were having in the relationship with communication, re-integration when he returned from a deployment, etc. It seems like there's a grey area because since we weren't married it doesn't count as marital, but he's not family or whatever either...but the problems we had were equivalent to marital problems. *grumble*
It's better to put it down and spend 5 minutes talking about it than try to conceal it and have an adjudicator decide you're trying to hide it.
Quick Update on something I'm seeing. This whole "What if they dig through my medical records?" It's illegal for anyone, for any reason, to look at your medical records unless you give a spoken AND written assent for them to look at ONE occurance. No one can just go through your medical files. They can check for specific visits and so on, if you give them clearance to do so. Security clearances require that you sign off for "general medical checking" which is this: They run an occurance check of the things you've said you have had done, for example, a surgery. They can only check that ONE occurance, and since you've signed the "general medical checking", they can check any RELATED occurances. That means they can look at the doctor visits leading directly to that surgery, not at a visit that had nothing to do with it. SO basically, the only things they know to look for is what you tell them that you have, or what is visibly noticable. If you deny that you've ever had asthma, they cannot look through your medical records for occurances of anything to do with asthma, simply because they HAVE to take your word for it and cannot violate your personal medical records. Now, if it's found out later that you in fact DID have asthma, and gave false information on that, you can be reprimanded. One specific reprimand, and this is specifically for MEPS, is a law of UCMJ that says something along the lines of "If you did not disclose information such as major medical history, law violations, and so on, and it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt that you did so, you can be jailed for a maximum of 2 years and fined." Also, in many cases, they can give you a dishonorable discharge from the Military if you are found guilty of this charge, which means NO benefits.
Quick Update on something I'm seeing. This whole "What if they dig through my medical records?" It's illegal for anyone, for any reason, to look at your medical records unless you give a spoken AND written assent for them to look at ONE occurance. No one can just go through your medical files. They can check for specific visits and so on, if you give them clearance to do so. Security clearances require that you sign off for "general medical checking" which is this: They run an occurance check of the things you've said you have had done, for example, a surgery. They can only check that ONE occurance, and since you've signed the "general medical checking", they can check any RELATED occurances. That means they can look at the doctor visits leading directly to that surgery, not at a visit that had nothing to do with it. SO basically, the only things they know to look for is what you tell them that you have, or what is visibly noticable. If you deny that you've ever had asthma, they cannot look through your medical records for occurances of anything to do with asthma, simply because they HAVE to take your word for it and cannot violate your personal medical records. Now, if it's found out later that you in fact DID have asthma, and gave false information on that, you can be reprimanded. One specific reprimand, and this is specifically for MEPS, is a law of UCMJ that says something along the lines of "If you did not disclose information such as major medical history, law violations, and so on, and it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt that you did so, you can be jailed for a maximum of 2 years and fined." Also, in many cases, they can give you a dishonorable discharge from the Military if you are found guilty of this charge, which means NO benefits.
You are way off on a lot of issues that I'm not going to waste my time arguing. One point, a security clearance is not a right, the commander can remove your clearance at any time. DoD investigators can go through all your military medical records with only a few exceptions. The waiver you sign is only so they can present them to a civilian medical facility. If they do not get the information they need to make a decision, your clearance may not be granted. Generally the command will go by the adjudicators decision.
I was talking specifically about civilian medical records.
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