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Do not purchase a second hand American car, you will inherit someone else's problems. I have been down that road before, two times, I purchased American made to be "patriotic," never again will I waste so much of my money.
I've got news for you. If you're buying high mileage used, you're getting somebody else's problems no matter what you buy. And obviously, some models are worse than others. Sorry you were burned on a couple of domestics.
Depending on the model, I would feel more comfortable with a lightly used American car than a 100,000 mile Mercedes.
I'd defy you to come and work efficiently, productively, and without making a lot of mistakes in the real world of servicing cars such as MB's products with a view that they are no different than what's found under the hood of a domestic marque.
The engineering approach to solving similar issues is markedly different in the German cars vs the American cars vs the Japanese cars.
Good hand skills, appropriate tools, and the ability to understand the systems and take a reasoned approach to problem solving/troubleshooting are common to quality techs ... but that's where the similarities end with the various car marques.
I've had techs that were the top grads from VoTech schools, community colleges, and domestic marque dealer tech training programs that owned a successful track record of earnings in a domestic car dealership shop not be able to figure out the logic behind how stuff was put together in an MB. While I'm sure that they could have learned the tactics needed, they'd have starved before becoming productive .... and went back to the makes they were familiar with.
Just some basic examples ... I can overhaul a Subie 2.2 or 2.5 liter flat 4 motor with a very basic set of common hand tools and general practices and good techniques. The same cannot be said for a MB motor ... it takes a lot more tools, tooling, craftsmanship, adjusting/fiddling, contortions and blue air around the project to accomplish the same overall scope of work. In comparison, I just completed an in-frame overhaul on my JD4020Diesel tractor, and it was the simplest motor I've worked on in years. The tool count for the job was minimal ... it was the first JD diesel I've ever overhauled and it was simple; such cannot be said of MB's diesel motors (of which I've overhauled a couple hundred over the years ....). Electrical systems in the Subie are simple and straightforward, reliable, durable, and easy to troubleshoot ... again, you cannot make anywhere near that kind of comment about an MB. The German approach is complexity to an extreme for a very minimal theoretical gain in efficiency and performance ... a techno-wonder at great expense.
The MB factory issued workshop manuals are among the least effective means to troubleshoot failure causations in the cars, although essential to understanding what components are in the system. They are really targeted to dealership menu-tree parts replacement decisions, not making effective repairs in the cars. That's why there's so many aftermarket successful MB shops for such a limited volume of cars in the fleet ... somebody finally has to fix the cars instead of just swapping parts under warranty. Again, an example ... I saw more MB transmissions fixed in the aftermarket through the problem solving of ATRA and some good aftermarket parts suppliers than I ever saw come from a dealership service department. Similarly, a lot of HVAC fixes in these cars came from the aftermarket, and not from MB.
You either conveniently ignored my point or you were so flustered by what you read that you had to type all that up... I believe you think my point was that any Earl down at the gas station can adequately repair these cars, no, I was however saying that no car requires any black magic to work on.
You seem to harp on having the right tools... Obviously you need appropriate resources, however the acquisition and utilization of the tools is no difficult feat, maybe expensive but nothing more. Having and using the right tools is exactly what I meant by doing everything exactly as it should be done.
I still disagree with you on diagnosis, FSMs will indeed point you in the right direction, however there is a degree of poking around that needs to be done.... all that is required is patience and a good ear/eye and perhaps some more of the tools you were talking about. Obviously once you have done things enough you no longer need an FSM if you even needed one in the first place, but time/shop throughput is not what I am talking about.
My ultimate point is that anything and everything is doable yourself coupled with basic knowledge of how things work. I know you would like to think working on German cars is some dark art but in my opinion it really isnt, its just pulling apart complex systems which are comprised of several simple components.
You either conveniently ignored my point or you were so flustered by what you read that you had to type all that up... I believe you think my point was that any Earl down at the gas station can adequately repair these cars, no, I was however saying that no car requires any black magic to work on.
You seem to harp on having the right tools... Obviously you need appropriate resources, however the acquisition and utilization of the tools is no difficult feat, maybe expensive but nothing more. Having and using the right tools is exactly what I meant by doing everything exactly as it should be done.
I still disagree with you on diagnosis, FSMs will indeed point you in the right direction, however there is a degree of poking around that needs to be done.... all that is required is patience and a good ear/eye and perhaps some more of the tools you were talking about. Obviously once you have done things enough you no longer need an FSM if you even needed one in the first place, but time/shop throughput is not what I am talking about.
My ultimate point is that anything and everything is doable yourself coupled with basic knowledge of how things work. I know you would like to think working on German cars is some dark art but in my opinion it really isnt, its just pulling apart complex systems which are comprised of several simple components.
Haven't missed your points at all, my friend. With over 40 years of professionally working on these cars, specifically MB and BMW, and owning my own shop for over 30, employing and training a lot of techs through the years ... my knowledge comes from actual hands on experience and seeing how actual work product is produced in real shops.
It's no "dark art" to work on German cars, but they are distinctly different in their engineering and execution than just about everything else in the marketplace.
Obviously, you've never worked on these cars on a shop production basis where time is money and you can't simply blow a lot of billable hours away because somebody ... your customer ... is going to pay for it, no matter what. The bottom line is there is a cost to value ratio that can easily be exceeded for most of your prospective customers. Not everybody is proud to announce that they've been "fleeced again" at the repair shop for their pride and joy automobile.
And yes, I focus on having the correct tools and equipment to work on these cars. You'll not be diagnosing a lot of problems in the electronics/electrical systems in a 'benz today with a multi-meter and a test probe light. And I still defy you to work on a 'benz with only basic hand tools ... they do require a fair number of specialty tools to adjust components correctly. You can't fudge it with measuring tools and be effective or efficient about getting the jobs done. It's more than simply an inconvenient expense issue when some of the required tooling is hundreds or thousands of dollars ... this expense level puts the tooling into the realm of a professional shop where the cost can be amortized over many repeated jobs, not just one car you're trying to maintain.
I have a Lexus and Mercedes and unfortunately, parts for the Lexus are higher than the Mercedes.
Yes, on a per-part basis, many parts are more expensive for the Lexus than the MB.
However, on a cost-per-mile basis, the Lexus blows the doors off the MB. They simply don't have the parts failure rate or repeat failures that the recent MB's are experiencing.
All things being equal, I would not let the warranty sway me in this choice. The Mercedes would be my choice depending on model, a far better investment than a used American car.
Being that it's quite UNwise to consider anything that rusts as an investment...
Haven't missed your points at all, my friend. With over 40 years of professionally working on these cars, specifically MB and BMW, and owning my own shop for over 30, employing and training a lot of techs through the years ... my knowledge comes from actual hands on experience and seeing how actual work product is produced in real shops.
It's no "dark art" to work on German cars, but they are distinctly different in their engineering and execution than just about everything else in the marketplace.
Obviously, you've never worked on these cars on a shop production basis where time is money and you can't simply blow a lot of billable hours away because somebody ... your customer ... is going to pay for it, no matter what. The bottom line is there is a cost to value ratio that can easily be exceeded for most of your prospective customers. Not everybody is proud to announce that they've been "fleeced again" at the repair shop for their pride and joy automobile.
And yes, I focus on having the correct tools and equipment to work on these cars. You'll not be diagnosing a lot of problems in the electronics/electrical systems in a 'benz today with a multi-meter and a test probe light. And I still defy you to work on a 'benz with only basic hand tools ... they do require a fair number of specialty tools to adjust components correctly. You can't fudge it with measuring tools and be effective or efficient about getting the jobs done. It's more than simply an inconvenient expense issue when some of the required tooling is hundreds or thousands of dollars ... this expense level puts the tooling into the realm of a professional shop where the cost can be amortized over many repeated jobs, not just one car you're trying to maintain.
Well, at least we adequately understand each other.
On another note I would like to say how much I think these cars are an illusion of grandeur. You said yourself that there such an immense amount of complexity input to achieve a relatively little gain of performance output. Granted a person in your position very much benefits from such highly complex yet unreliable systems. But its the fact that these over engineered complex systems drives cost up so much that this illusion of superiority is created.
An MB driver has the understanding that their car is expensive, it is complex/sophisticated, and requires very particular servicing... all this when in reality there is no actual superiority but rather you have an expensive machine that needs constant proprietary maintenance and repair. The whole realm that these types of cars reside in is absolutely absurd, completely lacking of any hint of practicality.... but as it is evident, this illusion of grandeur, coupled viscous cycle of expensive initial cost and expensive maintenance is what keeps these companies alive.
Well, at least we adequately understand each other.
On another note I would like to say how much I think these cars are an illusion of grandeur. You said yourself that there such an immense amount of complexity input to achieve a relatively little gain of performance output. Granted a person in your position very much benefits from such highly complex yet unreliable systems. But its the fact that these over engineered complex systems drives cost up so much that this illusion of superiority is created.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with this illusion outlook. The marginal increase in capability of these cars is simply not going to be utilized by 99.99999% of the drivers for more than mere seconds of the car's useable life. Even in our western states with wide open spaces and mountain twisties to play on, traffic conditions and roads rarely allow a reasonable driver the opportunity to flaunt the laws and push these cars to anywhere near their capacity. Now that MB is building cars designed to push the handling envelope from the low 100's mph into the mid 100's mph ... it's simply way more than anybody is going to have an opportunity to utilize. It's all about prestige, I guess, but it does come with some steep price of admission as well as continuing maintenance.
If you watch the secondary market, you'll see the result. Many very capable and nice S class cars of recent years ... not the super high powered/high dollar top of the line, but the more common models ... are reselling for a fraction of their original delivered prices. I've got clients "stuck" in S class cars that are cosmetically beautiful and capable of many more service miles that can't get buyers at mid 4 figures ... and they "want" a newer model, but won't buy that until the old one in the garage is sold.
An MB driver has the understanding that their car is expensive, it is complex/sophisticated, and requires very particular servicing... all this when in reality there is no actual superiority but rather you have an expensive machine that needs constant proprietary maintenance and repair. The whole realm that these types of cars reside in is absolutely absurd, completely lacking of any hint of practicality.... but as it is evident, this illusion of grandeur, coupled viscous cycle of expensive initial cost and expensive maintenance is what keeps these companies alive.
Unfortunately, there's a lot of MB driver's who pay the price of admission but then cannot afford to maintain the cars properly. That's why there's so many of them in the secondary market that need expensive repairs to restore a lot of functions ... and they're being sold because the owner won't pay the price to do so. Particularly if it's a repeat failure item of substantial expense in parts and labor ... like aux cooling fans which are needed to allow the A/C system and the engine cooling to function properly. Or axles on the AWD models. Or trannies in many of the models. And these cars weren't driven hard or anywhere near their capabilities ... they just have run time and miles on them.
Couple this with repeated design/execution problems ... like failing motor mounts, or glitches in the braking system computers, or motor management issues, or cruise/climate/seat/mirror system issues, or inadequate wiring/connectors at critical items (like headlights) that self-destructs ... these are issues that simply shouldn't be problems in an expensive car, weren't issues in the older models from years past when the reputation of the line was made ... but now are present and expensive recurring failure issues. Window regulator failures? you don't expect this type of stuff to be a maintenance issue, you expect this to be a "wear -out" item on a high mileage car with a possible replacement once or so in a car's useable service life.
Unfortunately, there's a lot of MB driver's who pay the price of admission but then cannot afford to maintain the cars properly. That's why there's so many of them in the secondary market that need expensive repairs to restore a lot of functions ... and they're being sold because the owner won't pay the price to do so. Particularly if it's a repeat failure item of substantial expense in parts and labor ... like aux cooling fans which are needed to allow the A/C system and the engine cooling to function properly. Or axles on the AWD models. Or trannies in many of the models. And these cars weren't driven hard or anywhere near their capabilities ... they just have run time and miles on them.
Couple this with repeated design/execution problems ... like failing motor mounts, or glitches in the braking system computers, or motor management issues, or cruise/climate/seat/mirror system issues, or inadequate wiring/connectors at critical items (like headlights) that self-destructs ... these are issues that simply shouldn't be problems in an expensive car, weren't issues in the older models from years past when the reputation of the line was made ... but now are present and expensive recurring failure issues. Window regulator failures? you don't expect this type of stuff to be a maintenance issue, you expect this to be a "wear -out" item on a high mileage car with a possible replacement once or so in a car's useable service life.
This all begs the question... whats your daily driver?!
and a varied fleet through the years of Brit, Italian, German motorcycles which included Norton, Matchless, AJS, Greeves, MotoGuzzi, Ducati, Velocette, BSA, Triumph, Gilera, MVAugusta, BMW, Brough ....
and several 1960's vintage Ferrari's, Porsche's, Aston Martin's, Maserati's, a miserable Facel Vega ("jezebel"), a couple of FIAT 124's, and an OSCA.
FWIW, my automotive career started in the early 1960's, and lead to my own motorcycle repair shop where I bought/sold/traded a lot of college student's bikes. From there, into my own high end euro car maintenance shop, where we had an MB & BMW clientele for daily drivers. Along the way, I worked for a private car collection with euro cars of the 10-20-30-40-50's decades ... stuff life MB, RR, Bentley, Horch, Maybach, Adler, Hispano-Suiza, Delahaye, Delage, Daimler, Pegaso, Ferrari, and many other high-end cars of the era. The rare stuff that you see in auction houses today bringing big bucks ... the family started collecting these cars in the 1950's. They had an even larger collection of American cars ... all the V-12's and V-16's and Kissels and other high dollar rarities ... but they had another tech that worked on those cars who was a full time employee. Sideline ventures got into maintaining a fleet of RR cars, although these were a real pain in the butt to keep on the road and not very satisfying to work on.
The only auto's I haven't worked on professionally are domestic USA and Asian brands. FWIW, I've also done a fair bit of work on stationary powerplants such as PAMCO, Caterpillar, Cummins, Fairbanks-Morse, etc ... used in mining or remote power generation. And I just overhauled my first JD diesel in my own 1964 4020 this last month ... a very fun and easy motor to overhaul. It just got the first 24 hours of run time cutting alfalfa this week, and burned a whole 1 qt of oil during the break-in ... I was pretty happy with that for an outcome. We'll see how it does for the baling over the next few days.
I've maintained fleets of MB's for law, architects, and MD firms, as well as sales reps. Many with enough miles put on them to see them through major engine overhauls and continued service to the high hundred's of thousands of miles ... especially the diesels of the 1970's and 1980's.
The only cars I haven't worked on that I'd have really gone out of my way to get familiar ... Doble, Stanley, and Serpollet. There's a lot of fascination with external combustion cars .... the one shop I knew that worked on these never had one apart when I could get there.
Yes, on a per-part basis, many parts are more expensive for the Lexus than the MB.
However, on a cost-per-mile basis, the Lexus blows the doors off the MB. They simply don't have the parts failure rate or repeat failures that the recent MB's are experiencing.
Yeah and you are onto something there with that keyword "recent" Mercedes. Some of the 80s Mercedes (at least the S-Class models) seem to have alot less major issues than the early LS400s. I own both.... an '88 Mercedes and a '91 Lexus. Both are excellent, well built cars, but the Lexus is in need of more repairs at this time, costly ones and its a more complex car. The biggest issues with the 80s-91 S-Class Mercedes were timing chain and components updates were critical on the V8 models and the I6 models had some headgasket issues, but other than that, they were basically bulletproof and easy to service.
The LSs are different and while they are still excellent cars and still reliable even today nearing 20 years old, they have alot of small things that catch up to them such as motor mounts, which are a pain to change, valve cover gaskets that are a pain to change, a notorious problem on ALL of them are power steering pump leaks, another costly repair and the electro-luminescent instrument clusters tend to give problems anywhere between 10-20 years... I am lucky with mine though, as mine dont have that problem so far, but the 1st three I mentioned, it does need at 220K miles, but thats to be expected. None of these were real issues on the 80s Mercedes and if it were, they were easier to deal with than on the LS. 1992 was a totally different issue with the Mercedes S-Class, because the mid 92 models had those horrible biodegradable wiring harnesses (as did all MB's until about 1995) and they had A/C evaporator issues, which required the removal of the entire dash panel to replace.
So, with that said all of the Lexus I have owned (three) needed more costly repairs than the three Mercedes I have owned, but it could have been a coincidence.
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