Coronavirus in Massachusetts (Boston, Florida: bureau, crossing, profile)

[FarmCoastLocal]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

The fact is, you are still at lower risk than you think. Don't be fooled by all this "case" stuff. Do we need to review who is actually predominately at risk again? It's mostly the over 80 crowd.

But hey, stay home forever. I really don't care what individual people do.

Keep fighting the good fight. Here's an analogy from my former lifeguard days:

When we went through training for active drowners (the folks thrashing about to stay above the water) we were taught to approach in a way that both assisted the swimmer and kept the lifegaurd out of harms way.

You see when someone is in this sort of condition (fearful for their lives) they will grab you and try to use you as a flotation device even if it means holding you under while they panic.

This is sort of what we're seeing with the pandemic where a vocal group of individuals want to shut everything down and restrict other people for the sake of self preservation (which ofcourse they might deny to try to keep a moral high ground).

It's not about isolating the most vulnerable. It's about a primal survivalist desire that causes them to think, like the drowning man or woman, that what they are doing is absolutely necessary.

When dealing with such people disarming them with listening and empathy is perhaps the best route forward. It's easy to get caught up into it, but emotions are temporary. I can tell you're reasonable, and I kindly offer that advice for future posts, so you can be even more effective in your communication.

[mdovell]

So much for urban areas being hot beds. John Hopkins

https://www.studyfinds.org/surprisin...r-death-rates/

This explains that the more its sprawled out the worse it gets. Detroit and Houston come to mind

[htfdcolt]

Originally Posted by FarmCoastLocal

Keep fighting the good fight. Here's an analogy from my former lifeguard days:

When we went through training for active drowners (the folks thrashing about to stay above the water) we were taught to approach in a way that both assisted the swimmer and kept the lifegaurd out of harms way.

You see when someone is in this sort of condition (fearful for their lives) they will grab you and try to use you as a flotation device even if it means holding you under while they panic.

This is sort of what we're seeing with the pandemic where a vocal group of individuals want to shut everything down and restrict other people for the sake of self preservation (which of course they might deny to try to keep a moral high ground).

It's not about isolating the most vulnerable. It's about a primal survivalist desire that causes them to think, like the drowning man or woman, that what they are doing is absolutely necessary.

When dealing with such people disarming them with listening and empathy is perhaps the best route forward. It's easy to get caught up into it, but emotions are temporary. I can tell you're reasonable, and I kindly offer that advice for future posts, so you can be even more effective in your communication.

Let me humbly differ from your opinion here.

No one, repeat no one, wants to "shut everything down". Not the Green Party, not Democrats, not Republicans, not Libertarians. Especially here in the US, where affordable health insurance is often tied to one's employment. A much shorter shutdown might have been possible if something had been done nationally--which would have sent a consistent message, instead of propagating false narratives that "Miami is different from NYC". Another fact which greatly hurt was CDC coming out early against masks. Not just neutral, mind you, but literally against masks...this is still mind-boggling. I've said it here before...but Asians have been wearing masks for over a decade now and it's been proven to stop the spread of respiratory diseases.

So now...the one ticket to getting back to normalcy--is being opposed by the same folks who oppose a shutdown. This is totally illogical. If you want to open things up, you need other means of restricting the spread. Limiting occupancy, sanitary/hygiene measures, and yes wearing masks. If you're against both such measures and against lockdowns...it makes zero sense.

[massnative71]

Originally Posted by htfdcolt

Let me humbly differ from your opinion here.

No one, repeat no one, wants to "shut everything down". Not the Green Party, not Democrats, not Republicans, not Libertarians. Especially here in the US, where affordable health insurance is often tied to one's employment. A much shorter shutdown might have been possible if something had been done nationally--which would have sent a consistent message, instead of propagating false narratives that "Miami is different from NYC". Another fact which greatly hurt was CDC coming out early against masks. Not just neutral, mind you, but literally against masks...this is still mind-boggling. I've said it here before...but Asians have been wearing masks for over a decade now and it's been proven to stop the spread of respiratory diseases.

So now...the one ticket to getting back to normalcy--is being opposed by the same folks who oppose a shutdown. This is totally illogical. If you want to open things up, you other means of restricting the spread. Limiting occupancy, sanitary/hygiene measures, and yes wearing masks. If you're against both such measures and against lockdowns...it makes zero sense.

If we had just shut down the border weeks prior (which we DID know enough to) and instituted a stringent but much briefer shutdown, we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now. But NOOOOOOO!


The CDC is/has been an extremely flawed and corrupt organization, but unfortunately it's all we've had to rely on in a case like this.

[htfdcolt]

Originally Posted by massnative71

If we had just shut down the border weeks prior (which we DID know enough to) and instituted a stringent but much briefer shutdown, we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now. But NOOOOOOO!


The CDC is/has been an extremely flawed and corrupt organization, but unfortunately it's all we've had to rely on in a case like this.

I'll agree with the first part of what you're saying. We went from "15 cases going down to zero" in late January, to doing *nothing* all through February, and then closing down borders starting March 11. All through February, we watched the virus propagate in Europe (Italy & Spain)...while we know Boston & NYC for sure received a lot of European visitors during the month.

In any case, hindsight is cheap. At least in terms of actions we can take going forward, one would think we've learned our lessons, but no. And that's what's frustrating.

[GeoffD]

The problem is that it took several months for the “experts” to finally accept the data that the disease is spread by asymptomatic and Pre-symptomatic people. That is not the behavior of similar diseases. If that had been well understood in mid-January, the expert recommendations would have been unanimous to pull the plug on any border crossing and mandate a 14-day quarantine. By mid-March when that was understood and accepted, it was far too late. You can second guess the national response from mid-March onwards but nobody had an accurate profile of transmission before then.

[massnative71]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

The problem is that it took several months for the “experts” to finally accept the data that the disease is spread by asymptomatic and Pre-symptomatic people. That is not the behavior of similar diseases. If that had been well understood in mid-January, the expert recommendations would have been unanimous to pull the plug on any border crossing and mandate a 14-day quarantine. By mid-March when that was understood and accepted, it was far too late. You can second guess the national response from mid-March onwards but nobody had an accurate profile of transmission before then.

Problem is some of those "expert" types have trouble seeing the forest for the trees. After watching what unfolded in China and then Italy, should have at least instilled a sense of urgency here. But no point in worrying about that now...

[redplum33]

Geoff, add FCL to the list.

[redplum33]

Originally Posted by massnative71

Problem is some of those "expert" types have trouble seeing the forest for the trees. After watching what unfolded in China and then Italy, should have at least instilled a sense of urgency here. But no point in worrying about that now...

What was happening in China and Italy then is the same thing that is happening in Florida, Texas, Arizona, and other states now.

People here are celebrating as if we have this thing under control. We don't. What's going on in other areas of the US right now is nothing short of alarming. Three straight days of record setting numbers in the US. And there are predictions that those record setting numbers from the past few days are going to seem tiny in a couple weeks.

There should be a sense of urgency here now.

[GeoffD]

Originally Posted by redplum33

What was happening in China and Italy then is the same thing that is happening in Florida, Texas, Arizona, and other states now.

People here are celebrating as if we have this thing under control. We don't. What's going on in other areas of the US right now is nothing short of alarming. Three straight days of record setting numbers in the US. And there are predictions that those record setting numbers from the past few days are going to seem tiny in a couple weeks.

There should be a sense of urgency here now.

The difference between Italy/China then and Florida/Texas/Arizona now is that the way to keep the transmission rate below 1.0 is now very well understood. What is happening now in the United States is totally inexcusable.