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You're in la-la-land, sorry. You just don't get how dense it is in Nassau and how overloaded existing stations are. There's simply no way Hicksville and Mineola could be expanded enough. I don't use Mineola regularly but Hicksville is a nightmare--it draws passengers from a pretty wide area already and that drive is no 15 minutes. It may not be the Nassau County Rail Road, but you can't take away a heavily utilized service (which most of the main line is) because someone in Brookhaven MIGHT take it more. Most people that far east aren't commuting into the city; an express trip will be of little benefit. What people further east need is better intra-suburb commuting, and express rail service will do nothing to help that problem.
Not to mention, making stops less frequent will mean an enormous traffic jam as everyone's drive to the station doubles or triples.
You're in la-la-land, sorry. You just don't get how dense it is in Nassau and how overloaded existing stations are. There's simply no way Hicksville and Mineola could be expanded enough. I don't use Mineola regularly but Hicksville is a nightmare--it draws passengers from a pretty wide area already and that drive is no 15 minutes. It may not be the Nassau County Rail Road, but you can't take away a heavily utilized service (which most of the main line is) because someone in Brookhaven MIGHT take it more. Most people that far east aren't commuting into the city; an express trip will be of little benefit. What people further east need is better intra-suburb commuting, and express rail service will do nothing to help that problem.
Not to mention, making stops less frequent will mean an enormous traffic jam as everyone's drive to the station doubles or triples.
Thats the point of the Intermodal.
Bus and Train.
The reason you cant move around Long Island is because of the single driver car.
Just as a matter of perspective, the Township of Brookhaven is larger than the County of Nassau and growing at an enormous rate.
Since theres no more land left.
Nassau's got no where to go but up.
(Welcome to Queens 2.0).
Brookhaven still has a chance to get some of its infrastructure right.
If Intermodals arent at the core of Brookhaven 2030.. it will bean abject failure.
Crookhaven, have you spent any time travelling by bus and train? (FWIW, I lived in London for 4 years and never drove; I used bus and train service a lot.)
It SUCKS. The double waiting times, the slowness of bus service--it is much faster and easier to live 5 minutes from the train. And the extra time that would be added on through getting to the station by bus is substantial and will serve as a deterrent to using the train.
Yes you can speed up bus service a certain amount by not allowing cash fares and self swiping. But even when you do this (say, on a TfL bendy bus with 3 entrances, all with card readers, and cashless boarding) the bus is still slow as hell. Not to mention uncomfortable. (Hell on earth is, in fact, a 73 at rush hour. I'm still suffering the trauma.)
That link is useless because its based on the current LIRR map.
That link includes all forms of public transportation, not only LIRR...and also total commute time (ie: driving to train station, LIRR to Penn, Subway downtown, etc.) and commute time for non-public transportation users. That represents current day real world users of the public transportation system as a whole. Maybe you can get Steve Levy to put together some theoretic figures for the clamboy "less is more" intermodal bullet train proposal of '08. I personally don't have the resources to compile that data.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crookhaven
Who said anything about the Babylon branch?
None of North and South would change.
Just Riverhead to Hicksville to NYC
I think you're misunderstanding how the LIRR works slightly. The key to running a large number of express trains is having dedicated express tracks. This isn't as much of a problem west of Jamaica in the City Terminal Zone (or east to the Hempstead Branch merge) because the trackage is there to accomodate every single branch. Essentially, there really are only two "lines" - the Atlantic Avenue line Brooklyn terminus and everything else with a Penn Station terminus. Everything that goes to Penn eventually uses the same tracks through Long Island City and the East River Tunnels. The problem exists between the Hempstead Branch split and Hicksville where there is only one track in each direction. This is also one of the most heavily used stretches of track in the entire system, ridership-wise and train-wise.
On these tracks, not only do you have every single Main Line/Ronkonkoma train but also every single Port Jefferson Branch train, every single Oyster Bay Branch train and diesel service Montauk Branch trains. I believe all except the Main Line run non-stop on these tracks to Jamaica, and the Main Line skips everything between Floral Park & Jamaica. At rush hour, these tracks are already beyond full capacity. They really need an extra track even without bullet trains from Brookhaven (or is it Riverhead now?) jetting through every fifteen minutes.
If all Main Line trains ran non-stop through this stretch, there would be no service to Floral Park, New Hyde Park, Merillon Avenue, Mineola, Carle Place and Westbury. That would be a complete infrastructure disaster. The gridlock would rival Midtown Manhattan. Hempstead or Oyster Bay Branch service would need to be doubled at the minimum, further tying up the tracks. Remember I said express trains aren't "much of" a problem in the City Terminal Zone? Even though stations west of Jamaica have express lanes, during rush hour the locals are also used for express service because there aren't enough tracks! It's OK because most people in those areas use the subway anyway. The system is operating at full capacity right now. Trying to shove more trains through will most certainly effect the Babylon Branch (which, don't forget also provides trackage for the West Hempstead, Long Beach and Far Rockaway Branches) considerably.
It's a nice idea, but in reality it's completely impractical any time in the near future. The "improvements" required would spread far beyond some upgrades at Mineola and Hicksville. Are you ready for $40 round trip tickets? I think maybe it works for Town of Riverhead to Town of Islip, but west of that everybody gets screwed. Who knows if anybody out there would even use it? Hard to say with such little demand as it is...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crookhaven
Remember its not the Nassau County Rail Road and it operates on our Fed dime too.
Wait till the 2010 census and Brookhaven 2030 visioning.
There will be a reckoning.
crookhaven
Come on, get real. I think it'd be great if we had fast rail service deep into Suffolk but like I just explained above, it's not gonna happen. I know you'd like to believe that my reasoning is somehow motivated by arrogance, but to tell you the truth I don't even work in the city...just trying to explain how this infrastructure functions in reality. Wiping out those six stops for rush hour commute is not an option. Town of Brookhaven may be physically as large as Nassau County, but the Town of Hempstead alone is larger than San Fransisco, Baltimore, Seattle, Boston and virtually every other comparable American city population-wise.
I dunno what else to tell you, though I'm sure this discussion will continue so long as you can dream up clever ways to make it seem like the service doesn't exist out there because everyone west of Ronkonkoma "is selfish". Get Steve Levy to twirl his moustache and defy the laws of physics and make that reckoning come true. Never stop dreaming clamboy, maybe if you wish hard enough your magic choo choo will grow up into a real train one day.
That link includes all forms of public transportation, not only LIRR...and also total commute time (ie: driving to train station, LIRR to Penn, Subway downtown, etc.) and commute time for non-public transportation users. That represents current day real world users of the public transportation system as a whole. Maybe you can get Steve Levy to put together some theoretic figures for the clamboy "less is more" intermodal bullet train proposal of '08. I personally don't have the resources to compile that data.
I think you're misunderstanding how the LIRR works slightly. The key to running a large number of express trains is having dedicated express tracks. This isn't as much of a problem west of Jamaica in the City Terminal Zone (or east to the Hempstead Branch merge) because the trackage is there to accomodate every single branch. Essentially, there really are only two "lines" - the Atlantic Avenue line Brooklyn terminus and everything else with a Penn Station terminus. Everything that goes to Penn eventually uses the same tracks through Long Island City and the East River Tunnels. The problem exists between the Hempstead Branch split and Hicksville where there is only one track in each direction. This is also one of the most heavily used stretches of track in the entire system, ridership-wise and train-wise.
On these tracks, not only do you have every single Main Line/Ronkonkoma train but also every single Port Jefferson Branch train, every single Oyster Bay Branch train and diesel service Montauk Branch trains. I believe all except the Main Line run non-stop on these tracks to Jamaica, and the Main Line skips everything between Floral Park & Jamaica. At rush hour, these tracks are already beyond full capacity. They really need an extra track even without bullet trains from Brookhaven (or is it Riverhead now?) jetting through every fifteen minutes.
If all Main Line trains ran non-stop through this stretch, there would be no service to Floral Park, New Hyde Park, Merillon Avenue, Mineola, Carle Place and Westbury. That would be a complete infrastructure disaster. The gridlock would rival Midtown Manhattan. Hempstead or Oyster Bay Branch service would need to be doubled at the minimum, further tying up the tracks. Remember I said express trains aren't "much of" a problem in the City Terminal Zone? Even though stations west of Jamaica have express lanes, during rush hour the locals are also used for express service because there aren't enough tracks! It's OK because most people in those areas use the subway anyway. The system is operating at full capacity right now. Trying to shove more trains through will most certainly effect the Babylon Branch (which, don't forget also provides trackage for the West Hempstead, Long Beach and Far Rockaway Branches) considerably.
It's a nice idea, but in reality it's completely impractical any time in the near future. The "improvements" required would spread far beyond some upgrades at Mineola and Hicksville. Are you ready for $40 round trip tickets? I think maybe it works for Town of Riverhead to Town of Islip, but west of that everybody gets screwed. Who knows if anybody out there would even use it? Hard to say with such little demand as it is...
Come on, get real. I think it'd be great if we had fast rail service deep into Suffolk but like I just explained above, it's not gonna happen. I know you'd like to believe that my reasoning is somehow motivated by arrogance, but to tell you the truth I don't even work in the city...just trying to explain how this infrastructure functions in reality. Wiping out those six stops for rush hour commute is not an option. Town of Brookhaven may be physically as large as Nassau County, but the Town of Hempstead alone is larger than San Fransisco, Baltimore, Seattle, Boston and virtually every other comparable American city population-wise.
I dunno what else to tell you, though I'm sure this discussion will continue so long as you can dream up clever ways to make it seem like the service doesn't exist out there because everyone west of Ronkonkoma "is selfish". Get Steve Levy to twirl his moustache and defy the laws of physics and make that reckoning come true. Never stop dreaming clamboy, maybe if you wish hard enough your magic choo choo will grow up into a real train one day.
It still doesnt not express demand... just usage.
Clearly Township Intermodals would be contingent on the 3rd line.
The argument is pretty clear ...why should 65% of the service serve 45% of the people?
I guess we should keep dreaming about our imaginary choo choo as you guys figure out a way to make more land or better yet a time machine.
Seems like the LIRR is really only conveniently serving about 20% of the population on Long Island! What a shame considering it's service historically handled the two eastern LI counties, and predates the subway by almost a hundred years. Maybe they could re-open the Bay Ridge Branch for passenger service...or should they just change the name?
I wasn't kidding, I think high speed service from Suffolk would be great. Maybe when Nassau gets their act together and starts building "up" we can lure some more jobs out here and make commuting from Riverhead to East Garden City a reality. That's a whole lot more do-able than Eastern Suffolk-to-Manhattan. I'm all for expanding LIRR service, if you're going anywhere except Penn or Flatbush Avenue, it's pretty useless. Open north-south lines, intra-suburb transit....I can see it now!
Seems like the LIRR is really only conveniently serving about 20% of the population on Long Island! What a shame considering it's service historically handled the two eastern LI counties, and predates the subway by almost a hundred years. Maybe they could re-open the Bay Ridge Branch for passenger service...or should they just change the name?
I wasn't kidding, I think high speed service from Suffolk would be great. Maybe when Nassau gets their act together and starts building "up" we can lure some more jobs out here and make commuting from Riverhead to East Garden City a reality. That's a whole lot more do-able than Eastern Suffolk-to-Manhattan. I'm all for expanding LIRR service, if you're going anywhere except Penn or Flatbush Avenue, it's pretty useless. Open north-south lines, intra-suburb transit....I can see it now!
Kings and Queens are primarily served by the MTA Subway/Bus.
My percentages exclude the city.
The LIRR is a redundant, useless, underutilized luxury for most of NYC.
If it were up to me the only 3 Borough(aka Township Intermodal) stops would be Jamaica, Flatbush and Penn.
I am confident that Suffolks numbers will eclipse Nassaus greatly in the post 9/11 2010 Census.
As Nassau county continues to urbanize, we need to address Long Islands Eastward migration.
I like your thinking regarding density.
A Riverhead/Nassau link would be strong.
the problem is, the LIRR is not the problem. They have proposed service expansions in the past. RESIDENTS have blocked it. They blocked line improvements (double tracking, line straightening, possible electrification) from Huntington to Port Jefferson. The MTA gave up. How are you going to solve this?
I cant believe some people arguing for less stops on the LIRR. I dont think we should be closing/combining any stations, especially with the traffic.
The decision to close stations, particularly Center Moriches on the Montauk branch, was foolish. Because of that most folks in that area just drive to Ronkonkoma, an already burdened station and line.
Metro-North has managed to extend electrification much further out than the LIRR, and places like Southeast are just as rural as Speonk or Riverhead, yet they have electrification.
They should start with electrification to Speonk and Riverhead, with a new station built at Yaphank, built on the west side of the road.
Ronkonkoma should be TWO tracks all the way from Farmingdale.
Its funny how people argue that Nassau is "spoiled". If so, how come on weekends the LIRR makes it as hard as possible to travel between Nassau and the East End?
It seems alot of the trains on weekends heading out to Montauk use the main line and travel between that connection between Bethpage and Babylon. But they make no mainline stops, meaning that the trains run express past every community in central Nassau without making any stops.
That means that anyone (like me) who wants to go east, on a Sunday in particular (since LIB north-south service on Sundays is terrible and there's no ST) has to BACKTRACK to Jamaica.
If I want to go to Fire Island (Watch Hill) for instance on a Sunday. I have to get a ferry in Patchogue at 10:45am. But I have to get the train in Westbury at 8am and go west to Jamaica, then wait for a 9:11am train to Patchogue that will travel express down the main (going past where I got on). I know this train travels via the main by looking at the Babylon schedule, an MU arrives at 9:58am but my train departs at 9:52am, even though it left AFTER the MU in Jamaica.
It passes through Hicksville around 9:30am or so and coasts through at around 15-20mph. If it made a stop in Hicksville, I'd have been able to get on the 9:10am eastbound MU to Hicksville and transferred. Instead I have to leave over an hour earlier and spend roughly $7 more. Not only costing me time but MONEY as well. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON the train cant make a stop in Hicksville, none.
If I wanted to go past Patchogue (say out to the Hamptons or Montauk) I'd have to leave even earlier, because in order to catch the 8:13am I'd have to get a westbound MU at 7am and take it to Jamaica. And the 8:13am goes down the main and arrives in Babylon 8:52am, before the 8:58am arrives there (which leaves after in Jamaica).
There are too many express trains as it is, even in the middle of the night many trains zoom past my station (Westbury). After 10pm there should be NO express trains. And Westbury is a pretty busy station, the platforms are pretty crowded at alot of hours.
Most slowdowns on the trains are caused by speed restrictions due to crossing gates. Its why the Babylon line is so fast....no grade crossings, even the locals making all stops move along at a pretty good pace, getting between Babylon and Freeport in less than 30 mins. Grade crossings need to be eliminated, but in the meantime, having the gates come down sooner could speed up service. The speed limit in diesel territory is 65mph, electric is 80mph. The Port Jeff line is quite slow due to the grade crossings. Often they dont come down until the train is close-by, but having them come down sooner can mean faster train running.
The cars should be forced to wait longer so the train can go faster.
On the bus side of things the buses can make good time, if they had dedicated bus lanes and didn't have to wait for traffic lights they'd be pretty damn fast. As it is, some buses know how to make good time by cutting lines of cars, such as the case with many left turn signals in Nassau. It can save a good amount of time.
Buses and trains need total and complete priority over cars, then they will move faster, and people will think twice when the bus speeds past them while they sit in traffic.
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Good one
