[cecnj]

Rather than ending high school, how about making it relevant? Apprenticeships, vocational skills, life skills, career education, and learning to think about life beyond the scope of an 8th grader.

[Atlas1337]

Originally Posted by Tiger Beer

I lived in South Korea for quite a few years - teaching in all sorts of capacities.

Saw A LOT of that in their public schools. Always one of the biggest culture shock issues to see as foreigners teach in some of the schools.

Saw a few where kids were literally punched in the face by teachers. Completely insane.

Looks like South Korea is doing something right, and America is falling on its fat face. If Vietnam and some of the other countries in the region reform, they're going to fly past us too. If America wants to stay on top, it should be supporting walled-off Communist regimes, not opposing them ;0

[olecapt]

You are into the homogeneous population situation. Remove blacks and hispanics from US numbers and you get well into the top ten. See Utah.

That is a large portion of the problem in Las Vegas and other large cities. The upper quarter or half are just fine. But the bottom is pretty terrible. If you wish to improve scores and rankings fix the bottom quarter.

The upper socio-erconomic strata does fine. Coronado, a classic public high school, and Meadows, a very tightly regimented private school both do well. I had a couple of high end clients from Seattle turn absolutely off over Meadows...they considered it hopelessely thrown back to a more primitive era.

So the pattern is that the high end schools of whatever theory work. Low end schools of whatever theory don't.

There are some indications that a tight regimented school can work in the low socio-economic areas. There are also however some very liberal schools that also appear to work. And much of the progress in the general area appears to be smoke and mirrors. It is amazing that virtually no scores are kept in an area of such interest.

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by snoopaloopx

I think it starts with the values of the family. Americans are diverse and have the freedom to value many different things. But in Asian countries, education has been deeply valued by everbody for hundreds of years. Where you work, how high you progress, and your popularity depend on your education. That is why Asian Americans are the highest educated minority in the U.S. and over 50% of Asians born in America will complete a 4 year degree. This is way above the national average of 30%.

And despite many Asians immigrating here with language problems and poor financial status, they still send kids through college within 1-2 generations of arriving in the U.S. Asians show us that you can't keep blaming poor education on the teachers, poor financial situation, or language barriers. It starts with the values at home.

But on the reverse side, the strong values may not be the best thing for children. What you learn in school doesn't translate to success in everything in life. Values are subjective to a certain extent and you can never know exactly what is best for all children. Children in Asian families who aspire to be artists, athletes, and non-academics are suppressed in their families. Many Asians grow up learning that being gay is wrong, women should work at home, and a whole bunch of other conservative values.

So it's important for parents to instill the right values in their children, but also balance it with the freedom that allows some breathing room for the kids. There is no perfect formula, that's for each parent to figure out on their own.

It is actually not a parent/home issue. The lower quarter, where all the problems are, is a very high percentage busted and non-functioning families.

If you wish to fix the problem in schools like Las Vegas you have to do it without family support.

[unf0rgiven6262]

Originally Posted by olecapt

It is actually not a parent/home issue. The lower quarter, where all the problems are, is a very high percentage busted and non-functioning families.

If you wish to fix the problem in schools like Las Vegas you have to do it without family support.

Olecapt, why don't you run for mayor. You seem to have everything figured out.

[Atlas1337]

Originally Posted by olecapt

It is actually not a parent/home issue. The lower quarter, where all the problems are, is a very high percentage busted and non-functioning families.

If you wish to fix the problem in schools like Las Vegas you have to do it without family support.

This is why schools & teachers must have the power to discipline students. Many kids from lower socio-economic standings are not getting the discipline at home. Kids from broken families must be taught, from an early age, that failure is NOT an option. Otherwise, they will simply emulate their parents who were failures in life.

Originally Posted by snoopaloopx

But on the reverse side, the strong values may not be the best thing for children. What you learn in school doesn't translate to success in everything in life. Values are subjective to a certain extent and you can never know exactly what is best for all children. Children in Asian families who aspire to be artists, athletes, and non-academics are suppressed in their families. Many Asians grow up learning that being gay is wrong, women should work at home, and a whole bunch of other conservative values.

What are you blabbering about? Did you see China in the Olympics? What do you mean Asian culture doesn't value athletics? Your point about women is moot too. Most cultures to various extents are traditionally sexist, but I see it less in Asian culture than others. When I was a college student, all my teacher's assistants were Asian women. Finally, I don't know where Asian cultures stand on gays, but isn't it common in all cultures to regard homosexuality as wrong? How is that unique?

For the record I'm not East-Asian. I just respect their attitude on education.

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by Atlas1337

This is why schools & teachers must have the power to discipline students. Many kids from lower socio-economic standings are not getting the discipline at home. Kids from broken families must be taught, from an early age, that failure is NOT an option. Otherwise, they will simply emulate their parents who were failures in life.

We agree on that. But there are many theories and techniques. I would think a rather regimented one would work well though that need not involve corporal punishment. Then again that may simply be a simplistic view that proves wrong in practice.

I would also point out though that the techniques that actually will work are still unproven on every side...and no one seems willing to spend the time and money to validate any approaches.

So we end up with a lot of one offs that prove close to nothing.

[Lazydriver]

Originally Posted by Atlas1337

People automatically fear Math for various reasons...

You can be assured that my children will fear my backhand far more than their math assignment.

And what about those broken families where they don't give a damn about their kids...

Those are the kids that need discipline the most. They aren't getting it at home, so we need to dole it out at school.

The trick is to keep students inspired, and not slumping in their chairs, quickly memorizing something to pass a test, and then forgetting it and hating it. Oh, and to get the students to enjoy using it in their daily life so they can get better at it. It's a language.

This is wishy-washy bull****. High paid life mentors are there to get you 'inspired.' That's not the purpose of primary school. Its the student's responsibility to learn. Its the teacher's job to present the material. Any kid who disrupts class or doesn't finish an assignment should be made to fall in line. Believe me, after a few lessons in my hypothetical class room, no student will be 'slumping.'

Even if vouchers paid 75% of the tuition and fees, the 25% might've been too much for my parents.

Education would be a fraction of its current price if the government bureaucracy was removed. People in sub-Saharan Africa send their kids to private schools, I think your parents would have managed. Low income families would have to sacrifice cable TV or something else, but they would then pay more attention to the quality of education since they can see their money is on the line.

I guarantee you that students would hate a teacher like yourself. They would not respect you and only do the minimal of assignments just to keep you at bay. You would inspire people to hate their subject and associate it with hatred with that attitude.

As for sub-Saharan Africa, name one country that is well known for its economy or education. None? I thought so. And there's little government bureaucracy there, governments are very weak. As for cable TV, again, do you think the crack addict will give up their TV so that their innocent baby can go to school? The crack addict won't give a damn. Why should the kid suffer to a life of failure by virtue of their birth?

As for China, you neglected the third country on that list. Finland. In Finland, people are very reserved and very serious, but they do not have barbaric practices of beating the hell out of their kids or disowning them if they do something wrong. An Education is well respected there and teachers are considered very good. There are two tiers one can take in their secondary education depending on their interest: academic or vocational, and the colleges after the secondary school are tailored to exactly that. They also don't start school till the age of 7 (although there is a state-sponsored daycare program), and the environment is /supportive/.

[Atlas1337]

Originally Posted by Lazydriver

I guarantee you that students would hate a teacher like yourself. They would not respect you and only do the minimal of assignments just to keep you at bay. You would inspire people to hate their subject and associate it with hatred with that attitude.

As for sub-Saharan Africa, name one country that is well known for its economy or education. None? I thought so. And there's little government bureaucracy there, governments are very weak. As for cable TV, again, do you think the crack addict will give up their TV so that their innocent baby can go to school? The crack addict won't give a damn. Why should the kid suffer to a life of failure by virtue of their birth?

As for China, you neglected the third country on that list. Finland. In Finland, people are very reserved and very serious, but they do not have barbaric practices of beating the hell out of their kids or disowning them if they do something wrong. An Education is well respected there and teachers are considered very good. There are two tiers one can take in their secondary education depending on their interest: academic or vocational, and the colleges after the secondary school are tailored to exactly that. They also don't start school till the age of 7 (although there is a state-sponsored daycare program), and the environment is /supportive/.

I really don't care if students end up hating a particular subject. As long as they learn self-discipline, that's all that matters. Anyone can learn anything on their own nowadays. Schools should teach kids the tools for personal growth -- respect, and discipline. Math scores will naturally rise after that. Obesity will fall. Diabetes will fall. Drug use will fall. Gambling will fall. Fact.

[Danknee]

Originally Posted by Atlas1337

Looks like South Korea is doing something right, and America is falling on its fat face. If Vietnam and some of the other countries in the region reform, they're going to fly past us too. If America wants to stay on top, it should be supporting walled-off Communist regimes, not opposing them ;0

So the guy that doesn't put any weight into state versus state comparisons due to other potential variables wants to compare countries now? Good luck identifying what the dependent variables are here.