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Do you consider all for-profit colleges to be diploma mills? Is it possible that a for-profit school provides a better education (regardless of job market value) than a non-profit school?
The measures of what determines a better education IRT non-profits vs profits has been discussed in the education forum quite a bit.
1. Graduation rates: "For-profits offering bachelor’s degrees in 2008 graduated, on average, just 22 percent of their first-time, full-time students seeking these degrees—compared with 55 percent of such students who earn a bachelor’s at public institutions and 65 percent who do so at private nonprofits." Source Fastfacts
2. Academic quality of the student body: A link isn't really required for this. There is no selectivity for admission.
3. Transfer of credits and advanced degree admissions
4. School investment in students: "For-profit colleges devote less than a third of what public universities spend on educating students, even though the for-profit institutions charge nearly twice as much as their public counterparts for tuition, according to new federal government data released Thursday." Source
Quote:
Also, since you claim that diploma-mills have no job market value, I'd like to know what data you are basing that off of, if credible.
The measures here are loan defaults and job rates (originally cited by bluedevilz in the education forum).
1. For-Profit Schools Have High Loan Default Rates (http://www.capitalnews.vcu.edu/2011/05/for-profit-schools-have-high-loan-default-rates.html - broken link) "Far too many for-profit schools are saddling students with debt they cannot afford in exchange for degrees and certificates they cannot use. This is a disservice to students and taxpayers, and undermines the valuable work being done by the for-profit education industry as a whole."
2. Jobs: "Given the choice between two equal candidates for a job, employers indicated that they would hire the person with a traditional degree over someone with a degree from a virtual institution, says Jonathan Adams, an associate professor of communications at Florida State University's College of Communication."
Source (http://www.simpson.edu/dal/employerprefer.html - broken link)
"This literature review spanning nearly seven years largely suggests that there still may be a marked stigma attached to online degrees throughout the hiring process within those industries studied. In summary, all scholarly research to date has concluded that the “gatekeepers” have an overall negative perception about online degrees" Employer Perceptions of Online Degrees: A Literature Review
"while 49% of those who make hiring decisions have encountered applicants with online degrees, a 15 percentage point increase from this survey three years ago, only 19% have actually hired a candidate who only possessed an online degree, a one point decrease from the last survey ... When asked if they would give equal consideration to job candidates with online degrees and those with degrees from traditional colleges and universities, 63% of survey respondents said they would favor job candidates with traditional degrees"
Believe me, you DO NOT want the government to intervene in this mess any more than they already have. Everything the government touches is ruined. The reason college is so obnoxiously expensive is because the government allows for easy access to credit to pay for college. The same thing happened in the real estate market, and look what happened there. It's high time the people tell the government to step back and let free market rule.
As for the people who are drowning in debt... Well, I saw a rabbit get eaten by a bald eagle yesterday. If those people were in the wild, they would have suffered the same fate. I think they are lucky to have whatever they have today, because it's more than what that rabbit has
You're probably right, as I was looking at it from a different angle:
The student is borrowing money from the government to pay for the school, the schools get paid and the student left with debt. Gov't cracks down on schools and takes the money back putting the diploma mill out of business while putting a harsh restriction on the borrower like ten years before they could borrow again or something. After all you don't want borrowers to take advantage of it and squander the money to another for-profit school.
Of course they could take the money back and still make the student pay off the debt, which would mean the gov't gets more money... so that plan would backfire.
My wife has a MBA from a "regular" university and a BS degree from a "for profit" university. I was not wild about her doing the online thing because like many of you, I was skeptical. But...not only did she get a really nice raise when she completed her degree, it opened the opportunity for a really nice health care package at a decent rate also. I can't complain about the for profit degree in my case.
Well, I have a Masters of Science in Mental Health Counseling, with an endorsement in School Counseling from the University of Phoenix.
I had to work full time, and wanted a Masters in Social Work, that was not an option at the State University, they wanted only full time, traditional students.
Was it worth the money? Good question, since I have never really used the degree. Although it was a rigorous program, and I learned a lot. I was impressed with the teachers, aside from one.
It was hard work, and I had to do practicum counseling, and an internship in counseling.
I think a program like that is really more for professionals in the field already, who need the credential. Even with the degree, I feel like it is not respected the same as a degree in Social Work. I would counsel others to not spend the money for the degree.
But, that being said, it has put me at the top of any list to be interviewed for jobs with my other Masters degree. An edge well worth it's weight in gold these days, with good jobs so competitive.
The measures of what determines a better education IRT non-profits vs profits has been discussed in the education forum quite a bit.
1. Graduation rates: "For-profits offering bachelor’s degrees in 2008 graduated, on average, just 22 percent of their first-time, full-time students seeking these degrees—compared with 55 percent of such students who earn a bachelor’s at public institutions and 65 percent who do so at private nonprofits." Source Fastfacts
2. Academic quality of the student body: A link isn't really required for this. There is no selectivity for admission.
3. Transfer of credits and advanced degree admissions
4. School investment in students: "For-profit colleges devote less than a third of what public universities spend on educating students, even though the for-profit institutions charge nearly twice as much as their public counterparts for tuition, according to new federal government data released Thursday." Source
The measures here are loan defaults and job rates (originally cited by bluedevilz in the education forum).
1. For-Profit Schools Have High Loan Default Rates (http://www.capitalnews.vcu.edu/2011/05/for-profit-schools-have-high-loan-default-rates.html - broken link) "Far too many for-profit schools are saddling students with debt they cannot afford in exchange for degrees and certificates they cannot use. This is a disservice to students and taxpayers, and undermines the valuable work being done by the for-profit education industry as a whole."
2. Jobs: "Given the choice between two equal candidates for a job, employers indicated that they would hire the person with a traditional degree over someone with a degree from a virtual institution, says Jonathan Adams, an associate professor of communications at Florida State University's College of Communication."
Source (http://www.simpson.edu/dal/employerprefer.html - broken link)
"This literature review spanning nearly seven years largely suggests that there still may be a marked stigma attached to online degrees throughout the hiring process within those industries studied. In summary, all scholarly research to date has concluded that the “gatekeepers†have an overall negative perception about online degrees" Employer Perceptions of Online Degrees: A Literature Review
"while 49% of those who make hiring decisions have encountered applicants with online degrees, a 15 percentage point increase from this survey three years ago, only 19% have actually hired a candidate who only possessed an online degree, a one point decrease from the last survey ... When asked if they would give equal consideration to job candidates with online degrees and those with degrees from traditional colleges and universities, 63% of survey respondents said they would favor job candidates with traditional degrees"
I will say this--- I have known folks who were admitted into selective MBA programs (Duke namely one) and medical schools who were advised to just finish the pre-reqs at some place like Phoenix or any other Regionally Accredited school just to get certain pre-reqs completed.
I will say this--- I have known folks who were admitted into selective MBA programs (Duke namely one) and medical schools who were advised to just finish the pre-reqs at some place like Phoenix or any other Regionally Accredited school just to get certain pre-reqs completed.
To the best of my knowledge UofP does not offer that kind (pre-med) of course work (gen chem 1&2, orgo 1&2, physics 1&2 [+ lab requirements?], calc 1&2). I would be surprised if any of them do.
To the best of my knowledge UofP does not offer that kind (pre-med) of course work (gen chem 1&2, orgo 1&2, physics 1&2 [+ lab requirements?], calc 1&2). I would be surprised if any of them do.
I think it would be very difficult to complete "lab work" online....
I keep seeing an advertisement for an "online aeronautical college" and am intrigued. How does one learn how to become a pilot or A&P mechanic online? The pilot can of course use a local flight school and take coursework online but they would still need advanced hands on time in simulators (NOT Microsoft flight simulator). The A&P would be near impossible- You need to physically work on airframes and power plants- How do you do that online?
To the best of my knowledge UofP does not offer that kind (pre-med) of course work (gen chem 1&2, orgo 1&2, physics 1&2 [+ lab requirements?], calc 1&2). I would be surprised if any of them do.
The MBA coursework was statistics and financial and managerial accounting
I will have to ask my cousin what he and his friend took for prerequisites
For medical school (neither one had a science bachelors) and were finishing prerequisites for medical school (both have been accepted into programs as well).
The MBA coursework was statistics and financial and managerial accounting
I will have to ask my cousin what he and his friend took for prerequisites
For medical school (neither one had a science bachelors) and were finishing prerequisites for medical school (both have been accepted into programs as well).
I don't know about pre-reqs for an MBA, but premed requirements are pretty standard, and what I listed above is typical, tho I forgot to mention bio 1&2. All of these usually have lab requirements and that's not possible online. It's unlikely a medical in the US would accept distance learning premed courses, but who knows. I suppose an online class that is missing might be ok providing it's from a credible school. And, some Caribbean med schools may differ in requirements.
Well, I have a Masters of Science in Mental Health Counseling, with an endorsement in School Counseling from the University of Phoenix.
I had to work full time, and wanted a Masters in Social Work, that was not an option at the State University, they wanted only full time, traditional students.
Was it worth the money? Good question, since I have never really used the degree. Although it was a rigorous program, and I learned a lot. I was impressed with the teachers, aside from one.
It was hard work, and I had to do practicum counseling, and an internship in counseling.
I think a program like that is really more for professionals in the field already, who need the credential. Even with the degree, I feel like it is not respected the same as a degree in Social Work. I would counsel others to not spend the money for the degree.
But, that being said, it has put me at the top of any list to be interviewed for jobs with my other Masters degree. An edge well worth it's weight in gold these days, with good jobs so competitive.
When did you attend school? There are online social work programs offered by state universities. People with degrees in mental health counseling are qualified to to become LMHCs (licensed mental health counselors) or LPCs (licensed professional counselors) if they meet their state's requirements. Most states require 48-60 credit hours and a certain number of practicum hours.
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