Huntsville/Madison Development News (Birmingham, Cullman: taxation, most dangerous, rink)

[djmaxwell]

Originally Posted by johnsonkk

Even if it’s technically rain, when it hits the snow and ice, it will freeze. NWS issued another winter storm warning this morning. This link is for the outlook.

https://www.weather.gov/bmx/

Just a nit, but it is a winter weather advisory, not a winter storm warning.

[harry chickpea]

Originally Posted by RocketDawg

Got to agree with you. Best I can tell from looking at the various cameras, mostly Channel 48 since ALDOT doesn't have any in Madison County, all that was done was pre-treatment on a few major roads with a little brine, and that was ineffective. After that didn't work, they just essentially stick their heads in the sand and hope for warmer weather. Winter weather happens often enough in this area (it doesn't stop at the state line) that the governments should equip themselves with proper equipment and supplies to take care of things.

We get winter weather every year, and it's always the same. I remember once seeing the county mentioning how many pallets of salt (in bags!) they had. Buy it in bulk - it's cheap and doesn't go bad.

If nothing else, contract it out. With all the building going on, there has to be hundreds of pieces of equipment such as front end loaders, road graders, and large trucks that spread fertilizer in fields. It's not necessary to buy dedicated vehicles - many cities put plow blades (moldboards) on the front of garbage trucks.

This particular storm was mostly sleet in Madison County instead of snow. It's hard, almost impossible to plow sleet. But it could be salted and it would be gone in a short time. And tonight it's going to rain on top of all our ice, then turn cold again. It could be a big mess.

We, in northern Alabama, essentially do nothing. The Huntsville metro is a growing area, but nonchalance about preparation for winter events could well affect that growth. Maybe it's time for the television stations to take the governments on over their inaction.

I grew up in Vermont, have seen a lot more snow than many and have seen what works and what doesn't.

Reality is, the way this storm and the days after are being handled is about as good as it gets. The only effective treatment is sand, but there are a few major problems that sand will not cure.

Forget rock salt below 27 degrees. The only salt I'm aware of that works below that is calcium chloride, which generates its own heat but is ungodly expensive and generally only used on walkways.

Just about everyone is driving around on summer tires or what is laughably referred to in the north as "all-season" tires. They don't have the right rubber, they don't have the aggressive open tread, and for sure they don't have anything like studs or crushed walnut shell or sand added to the mix. The tires on many cars are as slippery as a cardboard box used to slide down a hill.

Roads in Vermont were never initially designed to be killer steep, as many of the ones here are. Teams of horses had to be able to safely get up and down in winter with a cutter or sleigh or wagon. Steep roads had one use in winter- skiing and sledding. They were closed to traffic for a good part of the year and never became main roads. Take a look at the design of the Brooklyn Bridge. To get to the height it needed to be above the water, long ramps had to be part of the design, so horses could pull wagons over it.

Road design changed, as near as I can figure it, in the 1950s and 1960s. Since automobiles could climb steeper slopes, roads were made that would never have been allowed before - especially in the south, where snow and ice were rare. It is impossible to make those roads safe in certain conditions.

Elevated roadways. Everyone is aware of the tradeoffs there.

Vermonters drive on packed snow regularly, and safely. There is a skill set that gets acquired with time and experience. Plowing the roads to pavement can at times be worse than leaving the snow pack. In those cases, sand is eventually needed and cars get covered in it.

Honestly, attempting to open iced or sleet covered roads here to anything but emergency vehicles just puts unskilled drivers with bad tires on roads never designed for snow and ice. Is being stuck at home a pain? Of course. The alternative in snow and ice can be much worse.

[AU HSV]

Circle K with its recent aquisuition of MAPCO has really increased its prescence in the Huntsille metro.
Currently a new store is planned at the corner of Steger and the Parkway (231-431) in Meridianville on the northeast corner.
There is another (converted MAPCO) existing a mile south across from Publix, (maybe this one will eventually be closed) and another just recently opened, further south at Bob Wade (Northern Bypass) and the Parkway.

[cooldiver]

Originally Posted by AU HSV

Circle K with its recent aquisuition of MAPCO has really increased its prescence in the Huntsille metro.
Currently a new store is planned at the corner of Steger and the Parkway (231-431) in Meridianville on the northeast corner.
There is another (converted MAPCO) existing a mile south across from Publix, (maybe this one will eventually be closed) and another just recently opened, further south at Bob Wade (Northern Bypass) and the Parkway.

40 years ago, Huntsville was plastered with Circle C stores. And also either Circle K stores, or something else that became Circle K shortly after I moved here in 1984.

[RocketDawg]

Originally Posted by cooldiver

40 years ago, Huntsville was plastered with Circle C stores. And also either Circle K stores, or something else that became Circle K shortly after I moved here in 1984.

And before that was U-Totem. They were all over town when I came here. I think the name lost out to political correctness.

[RocketDawg]

Originally Posted by harry chickpea

I grew up in Vermont, have seen a lot more snow than many and have seen what works and what doesn't.

Reality is, the way this storm and the days after are being handled is about as good as it gets. The only effective treatment is sand, but there are a few major problems that sand will not cure.

Forget rock salt below 27 degrees. The only salt I'm aware of that works below that is calcium chloride, which generates its own heat but is ungodly expensive and generally only used on walkways.

Just about everyone is driving around on summer tires or what is laughably referred to in the north as "all-season" tires. They don't have the right rubber, they don't have the aggressive open tread, and for sure they don't have anything like studs or crushed walnut shell or sand added to the mix. The tires on many cars are as slippery as a cardboard box used to slide down a hill.

Roads in Vermont were never initially designed to be killer steep, as many of the ones here are. Teams of horses had to be able to safely get up and down in winter with a cutter or sleigh or wagon. Steep roads had one use in winter- skiing and sledding. They were closed to traffic for a good part of the year and never became main roads. Take a look at the design of the Brooklyn Bridge. To get to the height it needed to be above the water, long ramps had to be part of the design, so horses could pull wagons over it.

Road design changed, as near as I can figure it, in the 1950s and 1960s. Since automobiles could climb steeper slopes, roads were made that would never have been allowed before - especially in the south, where snow and ice were rare. It is impossible to make those roads safe in certain conditions.

Elevated roadways. Everyone is aware of the tradeoffs there.

Vermonters drive on packed snow regularly, and safely. There is a skill set that gets acquired with time and experience. Plowing the roads to pavement can at times be worse than leaving the snow pack. In those cases, sand is eventually needed and cars get covered in it.

Honestly, attempting to open iced or sleet covered roads here to anything but emergency vehicles just puts unskilled drivers with bad tires on roads never designed for snow and ice. Is being stuck at home a pain? Of course. The alternative in snow and ice can be much worse.

Just a nit - but summer tires are not the same as all-season tires. Summer tires have a softer compound meant for performance cars, and shouldn't be used below 40F temperatures. All-season have a different rubber compound and are a compromises. I'm not sure you can even buy a winter tire here without special order, but then there's no real need to. The best all-season seems to be the Michelin Cross Climate II - technical all-season but has earned the 3-peak designation for winter use.

[harry chickpea]

Originally Posted by RocketDawg

Just a nit - but summer tires are not the same as all-season tires. Summer tires have a softer compound meant for performance cars, and shouldn't be used below 40F temperatures. All-season have a different rubber compound and are a compromises. I'm not sure you can even buy a winter tire here without special order, but then there's no real need to. The best all-season seems to be the Michelin Cross Climate II - technical all-season but has earned the 3-peak designation for winter use.

I agree with you on those points - especially if drivers understand that ice is a separate issue.

True snow tires are very rough on the road surfaces and as I remember, are banned after snow season in Vermont.

[FriscoEGS]

Originally Posted by johnsonkk

Even if it’s technically rain, when it hits the snow and ice, it will freeze. NWS issued another winter storm warning this morning. This link is for the outlook.

https://www.weather.gov/bmx/

I don't know if you accidentally posted the outlook from the Birmingham office, but here is the link for the Huntsville office's outlook, which will be relevant to the area.


https://www.weather.gov/hun/

[RocketDawg]

Originally Posted by harry chickpea

I agree with you on those points - especially if drivers understand that ice is a separate issue.

True snow tires are very rough on the road surfaces and as I remember, are banned after snow season in Vermont.

Probably the studded variety are banned, but not regular snow tires (Blizzack, etc.). They're not very good on dry pavement so not wise in the summer. But I don't really know - never lived in Vermont.

Sometime, I think in the 1980s, we had a "sleet storm" similar to this one, but it was a lot worse. There were reports of up to 8" of sleet, and I remember the news reported that numerous chicken houses were collapsing (not sure why I remember that tidbit, but it stands out). I don't remember how long it lasted, but I don't think it was all that long and was not followed up with rain like this one.

Weather models have improved drastically since then. The forecast of this storm was at least a week out, and was quite accurate. We in Huntsville/Madison/Decatur were right on the sleet/snow line, just a matter of a few miles south would have made a huge difference.

[harry chickpea]

Originally Posted by RocketDawg

Probably the studded variety are banned, but not regular snow tires (Blizzack, etc.). They're not very good on dry pavement so not wise in the summer. But I don't really know - never lived in Vermont.

Sometime, I think in the 1980s, we had a "sleet storm" similar to this one, but it was a lot worse. There were reports of up to 8" of sleet, and I remember the news reported that numerous chicken houses were collapsing (not sure why I remember that tidbit, but it stands out). I don't remember how long it lasted, but I don't think it was all that long and was not followed up with rain like this one.

Weather models have improved drastically since then. The forecast of this storm was at least a week out, and was quite accurate. We in Huntsville/Madison/Decatur were right on the sleet/snow line, just a matter of a few miles south would have made a huge difference.

I went through one ice storm in Birmingham back in the 1980s that was worse on the power outages and trees down. It may have been that same one.

I have been through just about every type of significant weather event except avalanche and been extremely fortunate. However, part of that "luck" has been being prepared.

I think you are right on it being the studded tires that have to be removed. I tried them a couple times, but there was a tire shop up there that did retreading, and the guy tossed a good amount of crushed walnut shells into the rubber. I could go places on those tires that the guys with studs couldn't, but the tires lasted just about one season. They were inexpensive, so I didn't care.

If you want to know how tough walnut shells are, drive down a side road and look for broken asphalt under a tree. Even odds that it is a walnut tree and grain trucks have run over the walnuts that dropped.