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Greg42-
The latest code reads- M1901.2 Cooking appliances.
Cooking appliances shall be listed and labeled for household use and shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions. The installation shall not interfere with combustion air or access for operation and servicing. Electric cooking appliances shall comply with UL 1026 or UL 858.
And the biggest arguement/disagreement I've had with buyers- using commercial ranges in residential spaces- Can't be done period! They are not insulated like units designs for residential use. Hence, you can have a "zero clearance" on a wall, cabinet, or even another appliance.
So, I certainly wouldn't put a plastic tubbed dishwasher next to a big honkin' commercial range.
The most important part- "installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions".
Can I hijack for a sec and just ask about this, before I go home to my house where the range (all electric, regular size) is next to the dishwasher (regular size)? It's been that way since I moved in 9+ years ago and I even got a new dishwasher installed about 5 or so years ago and the guy didn't say that was bad. Nor did the repair guy when he came and fixed the DW under warranty. My house only dates to the 1980s so it's not exactly ancient in terms of code, but it's not exactly up to date either. Is there really something in code that says not to lay it out that way? I'll probably be doing some reno in there, and it'll probably be on the cheap/easy side because it's a fairly cheap house, and keeping things in their same places would be somewhat cheaper/easier obviously. I don't particularly LIKE having it laid out that way, but it might not be especially practical to change around even though I do have at least twice as much space in there as the OP.
It would be nice to move the range in that tiny kitchen because it is next to the wall (which becomes a problem for putting larger items on the burners that are next to the wall), but as the OP said it probably can't be moved around easily in that kind of building. Which isn't to say it couldn't be done if you REALLY wanted to, probably just cost lots of $$$$. I'm familiar with a highrise condo building here and people can and do change the layouts somewhat as long as they're willing to spend enough. AFAIK there is no gas in this one though, which keeps it a little bit simpler.
Having cooktop or free standing range next to the wall is against code. There must be a minimum of 12" counter top to the wall. This varies a tad from area to area. Back east we did a high rise and code allowed us 9" to the wall. Not a very useful area of counter top.
There is no code or danger in placing the DW next to the range. It's merely a design no no. Assuming the DW is next to the sink, if the range is next to the DW then it's safe to assume you have 24" counter top from the sink to the range. No good. I really don't think code says that's a no no but from a design standpoint........nooooooo!!!
Of course the DW repair man said nothing to you about it. What would he expect you to do anyway? He don't even know the difference anyway.
Your kitchen must be small. I still believe if a kitchen is that small then one should not even have a DW. That's really my opinion and not an excepted practice of NKBA.
First thought: if ever a space was calling out for a range hood/micro combo this is it. I like the idea of becoming very familiar with Ikea's stuff. They make things for small spaces. I'd stay with a stove; a cooktop would force you to find space for a wall or under counter offer. As far as the dishwasher placed near the stove, it may be that local codes allow or don't allow this. This is a subject for your research. If there is a way to get a bigger sink, I'd do that, but it might not be possible in that small a space.
You are going to need storage on the walls and on the backsplash areas as well. I see you using every square inch in there. Allow a run of open counter wherever you can. What ever you can place in the pantry, do so.
I believe that Ikea has a design service of some sort. I'd try to find some design support somewhere. You are bound to do better with the input of a professional in this matter.
I would put the fridge where the stove is and move the stove to the opposite wall, centered, with a microhood over it. Open shelves instead of upper cabinets where it makes sense. If you don't need the D/W it's expendable but if you have enough storage then keep it. Obviously the smaller sized appliances (24" oven, d/w) will make everything work better and a single sink is fine.
As far as materials go I'd do a white/light solid surface counter with glass subway tiles on the back in a restful color. The cabinets can be wood but not in too dark of a stain with a high gloss, a slab style without embelishments. Think European.
I just want to preface this by thanking everyone for their responses. And now I will respond.
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Originally Posted by desertsun41
Wow....first I want to say WOW a real live 24" free standing range. How many arguments I have had over the years where people deny they exist. It's rare mind you. In 33 years and over 4000 kitchens to my name, only 1 single time have I had to install a 24" range.
In my city, I have seen MANY small kitchens with 24" stoves. In fact, you can waltz into most stores with appliances and see 20" stoves as well.
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Anyway. If you're doing a kitchen makeoever. First thing I have to say is that oven MUST be moved from the wall. Not only is it against all code but it's deemed unsafe though I never heard of any fire starting due to it. The range should never ever be next to the dishwasher. It also should never be next to a fridge though I see it all the time. Architects like to put the oven or range next to the fridge but they don't know any better.
So considering that I can't really move pipes and may or may not be able to move gas lines, what kind of arrangement would you suggest? (Moving a gas line is more likely to happen though.) What would your BEST suggestion (or suggestions) be in my situation?
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All the craze is shaker doors with dark dark dark dark almost black color. This fad is about to fall on it's face and all those who fell for this fad will be sitting on a house that can't sell cause they are fugly. For 2 years now I been posting that shaker accounts for 7 of every 10 sales in north America. I can honestly say all the statistics show shaker and dark color is fading like the wind. Thank God!!
I would never put a darker color in this kitchen due to the size.
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Stay with the single sink. Why lose more counter work space for the privilege of having another bin to store dirty dishes. If you really really really don't need the DW I might advice leaving it out but I know I will get some flack for that one. I see a tiny kitchen which suggests a tiny house which suggests no kids or maybe just 1. So who needs a DW anyway? Lazy people?
I am definitely staying with a single sink. DWs are pretty standard around here and every other unit in my building has one. Upon resale, I could see it being a negative in my favor if I removed it. When we were looking at co-ops, and we were looking at A TON of them, I only saw maybe one without a dishwasher. BTW-I may qualify as lazy but I do work very hard and at one time, I was working full-time, working on my M.S. and commuting through multiple areas that took anywhere from 1-1 1/2 hours---dishes are just something I hate to do! (I will do any other chore.)
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I don't know what that room next to the sink is but it appears to be a hallway. Why not take that wall out to make the kitchen feel bigger. At the very least make it a pony wall to 42" high and put a tiny counter top on it to be like a food serving staging area.
Which wall? The wall(s) around the door? I've thought about that but (1) I'd have to make sure I could and (2) In my mind, it doesn't look very good. But I'd probably need a visual, since sometimes it's hard for me to picture things like that.
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Originally Posted by chet everett
I have friends / clients that have bought condos in Chicago high rises that have kitchens every bit as tiny as the one pictured. The amount of money you spent on the condo is a huge "guide post" as to how much you might want to consider as a "max" -- if your unit is in a building that has some really fancy fixed up units in a luxury location it MIGHT make sense to actually spend MORE than you did on acquiring the condo, as down the road you can reap the benefits of turning the "ugly duckling into the beautiful swan" though that might require doing over the WHOLE unit --- if the only way to get "natural light" to the space is to remove other interior walls that is the sort of project that might be worthwhile...
I already have a sort-of maximum planned out to spend on projects within the unit. Trust me, I am not doing top-of-the-line anything. I am doing my own painting, for which I'll probably require another thread about in order to discuss something else. Ha. I have seen units comparable to mine in my own building but updated listed for anywhere from $40,000-70,000 more than what we paid---and really, I don't plan on spending anywhere near that.
I will say that I have purchased a co-op in a very wealthy area of my neighborhood. And people really do go all out sometimes. I feel like I have a sense of what people look for and what they don't based on obsessively watching the co-op market for the past two years.
Thanks for the links. I definitely plan on maximizing the function of everything here.
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Originally Posted by MrRational
As far as layout... I don't see any room for improvement.
It is what it is.
That leaves you the "lipstick on a pig" end of things.
You can put in new cabinets and use different materials when doing that.
And while it's all torn apart change out the flooring and lighting and paint too.
It will look nicer.
I actually kind of feel like this. I don't see how I could really change the layout much at all. Behind the kitchen on one side are the closets for the bedroom and on the other side is a closet (which seems to have something I won't be able to touch along there) and part of the foyer/dining area. The only way I could see improving anything would be to swap the bathroom with the kitchen---mostly because of wet-over-wet rules---but again, I don't think that would work with the gas line. However, I wouldn't do it because it's ridiculous and I definitely would lose money on that.
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Originally Posted by K'ledgeBldr
This will be your determining factor-
" We purchased it for a lower price because it needs some updating---"
What was the range of the comp's versus your purchase price? That should be your budget. However that works for updating a kitchen, and re-doing a bath- stick to it. Co-op's in NYC can be a slippery slope- especially when considering the age of the building and the financial status of the co-op as a whole.
The only time I know of when it's really "safe" to go over and above is when an adjoining unit can be obtained and combined. The unit can be used in the "overall" design, but can also function as a separate unit.
So, not knowing any of the particulars (those above, and all of the logistics that are involved in doing remodeling in NYC-[I do know a lot of them]) I'd probably concentrate on the bath. By all accounts the kitchen is operable- it's just not a shiny penny.
I did mention this and I will just reiterate it here so I can respond to your point but I am doing exactly that---comparing updated/similar units in the area (and even within my own building) listed/sale price to what I paid and that is what I am basing what I am willing to spend on the updates. Our co-op is financially stable. The only downside to my unit is that most of the kitchens in my building, aside from studios, seem to be somewhat bigger---not big but a more reasonable size.
I do have ideas for the bathroom that are not very expensive but will make it a million times better looking and that will appeal to people in my area. I guess I am mostly asking about the kitchen because that is what I find to be the more challenging task.
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Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81
I wouldn't do anything for at least six months after moving in.
After that, I'd probably get some new countertops, new floor, and paint the walls. Maybe new lights and cupboard handles.
It's hard to tell if the cupboards are dinged up at all -- or if the doors on the cupboard over the fridge won't close -- but if they aren't just keep them and dress them up a bit. If the appliances work, leave them. Don't fix it if it ain't broke.
I do not plan on doing much of anything, no matter how much the bathroom annoys me, for at least half a year. I would really like to be sure of what I am doing and would like to take my time without rushing.
The cupboards are okay---some are definitely better than others but under the sink it's pretty terrible. There is a weird smell---kind of like an old person smell---that many of them have. They do close. The appliances are staying for now but I guess what bothers me is that part of the stove doesn't really work yet since I don't plan on doing anything right away I don't see the point in buying a 24" one when I prefer a 30" one I guess.
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Originally Posted by silibran
First thought: if ever a space was calling out for a range hood/micro combo this is it. I like the idea of becoming very familiar with Ikea's stuff. They make things for small spaces. I'd stay with a stove; a cooktop would force you to find space for a wall or under counter offer. As far as the dishwasher placed near the stove, it may be that local codes allow or don't allow this. This is a subject for your research. If there is a way to get a bigger sink, I'd do that, but it might not be possible in that small a space.
You are going to need storage on the walls and on the backsplash areas as well. I see you using every square inch in there. Allow a run of open counter wherever you can. What ever you can place in the pantry, do so.
I believe that Ikea has a design service of some sort. I'd try to find some design support somewhere. You are bound to do better with the input of a professional in this matter.
Yes, after looking around in the store yesterday I agree that a microwave over the range is the way to go since it will just have a vent under the microwave anyway. I have bookmarked so many space-saving things or ways to use every square inch so I have a lot of stuff in mind for that.
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Originally Posted by Ceece
I would put the fridge where the stove is and move the stove to the opposite wall, centered, with a microhood over it. Open shelves instead of upper cabinets where it makes sense. If you don't need the D/W it's expendable but if you have enough storage then keep it. Obviously the smaller sized appliances (24" oven, d/w) will make everything work better and a single sink is fine.
As far as materials go I'd do a white/light solid surface counter with glass subway tiles on the back in a restful color. The cabinets can be wood but not in too dark of a stain with a high gloss, a slab style without embelishments. Think European.
I was also thinking about centering the stove but the problem I run into is that it really chops up the tiny bit of counter space I have. Currently, I have three slabs of counter space and what I mean by that is that the open, usable counter space is over two cabinets/the DW. I think having two of them kept together is better in terms of cooking/preparing/working on the countertop.
Having cooktop or free standing range next to the wall is against code. There must be a minimum of 12" counter top to the wall. This varies a tad from area to area. Back east we did a high rise and code allowed us 9" to the wall. Not a very useful area of counter top.
There is no code or danger in placing the DW next to the range. It's merely a design no no. Assuming the DW is next to the sink, if the range is next to the DW then it's safe to assume you have 24" counter top from the sink to the range. No good. I really don't think code says that's a no no but from a design standpoint........nooooooo!!!
Haha, I get it then. Yeah, design-wise, really bad. I have BOTH of those things, a near-useless 12" counter between range and wall on the right, then 24" from range to sink on the left of it with DW underneath. Yep. Chopped up counter space, kind of annoying. But as I'm sure you know, removing the DW wouldn't help the counter space at all in the small kitchen. Only thing that can actually change that is moving the range or sink or such. Ah well, we'll see. The range could potentially be moved without a huge production in that kitchen, perhaps. It doesn't currently have any through the wall ventilation or anything.
OP, definitely good to think in terms of your contiguous counter space. It won't be possible in there to have much I suppose, but whatever you can have is better than being too chopped up for sure.
I just want to preface this by thanking everyone for their responses. And now I will respond.
In my city, I have seen MANY small kitchens with 24" stoves. In fact, you can waltz into most stores with appliances and see 20" stoves as well.
So considering that I can't really move pipes and may or may not be able to move gas lines, what kind of arrangement would you suggest? (Moving a gas line is more likely to happen though.) What would your BEST suggestion (or suggestions) be in my situation?
I would never put a darker color in this kitchen due to the size.
I am definitely staying with a single sink. DWs are pretty standard around here and every other unit in my building has one. Upon resale, I could see it being a negative in my favor if I removed it. When we were looking at co-ops, and we were looking at A TON of them, I only saw maybe one without a dishwasher. BTW-I may qualify as lazy but I do work very hard and at one time, I was working full-time, working on my M.S. and commuting through multiple areas that took anywhere from 1-1 1/2 hours---dishes are just something I hate to do! (I will do any other chore.)
Which wall? The wall(s) around the door? I've thought about that but (1) I'd have to make sure I could and (2) In my mind, it doesn't look very good. But I'd probably need a visual, since sometimes it's hard for me to picture things like that.
Yes 24" ranges have been around forever but I only seen one back in the early 90s. A 20" range? Does it have 4 burners or 3? Now that's small. Truthfully though. why does anyone need bigger unless they do so much cooking?
The gas pipe works where it is now obviously. Moving the range to the left 9 or 12", it should not interfere with the gas pipe since it is likely stubbed out about 15" from the wall. If the pipe comes out where you should put the new 9 or 12" base cab then cut a neat round hole inside that cabinet back and let the pipe go through. Now you can drill a hole on the range side of the base cab towards the back and put the flex hose through it, connect it inside the cabinet. We do it all the time when the Builder stubs plumbing out in the wrong place.
Good that you're staying with the single sink. That's all ya need. Oh like I said....go with the DW if you feel you use it. I see the DW as something similar to a fireplace. Everyone wants one but few ever actually use it.
The microwave/exhaust would be the biggest space saving improvement.
The kitchen already utilizes most of the space. There is some wasted space on the upper part of the inside wall over by the refrigerator. You might be able to do something creative over there. If you want more closed storage, you could put a cabinet as deep as the fridge over top of it. This would make the room even more closed in, so it's a question of priorities.
There is space under the upper cabinets that can be utilized. You can either hang various appliances under the cabinets or install a shelf that is as shallow or deep as you like.
The room and the hallway might seem bigger if you removed the upper part of the wall between the hallway and the sink. Desert Sun's idea of putting a a tiny counter top on the top of a pony wall is excellent. I think you would find that area invaluable. That wall is probably 4" wide. If you remove the upper portion, you could have the tiny counter top and a few 4" wide shelves above it. An awful lot of kitchen stuff can fit on 4" deep shelves. At the very least I would cut out an alcove and line it with shelves. You could put alcoves under your cabinets or in that wall at the end as well. If you don't like the idea of seeing a lot of stuff lined up on tiny shelves you can easily put some thin sliding doors across the front to make it closed storage. These tiny shelves could include a charging station.
I would definitely install at least one under counter pull out shelf when you buy new cabinets. I would buy cabinets that let me access the gap between the floor and the cabinet bottom.
If you are concerned about having the stove next to the wall you could install a fireproof panel there. My cousin has a 24" range, lol, and she claims she has never had any problem cooking for her family of five. But she does have clearance on each side of the stove, allowing her to use four big pots if necessary.
I know plenty of kitchens that have a french door fridge up against a wall. There does not seem to be a problem with the door hitting the wall.
Finally, I would buy custom cabinets because I wouldn't want any wasted space. I would want that under cabinet/floor space, the pull out trays, if I put a deeper cabinet over the fridge I might the lower shelf to be a pull out drawer, etc.
I had a 24" stove in a previous apartment. The oven is small, but no smaller than most wall ovens I've seen. There's no space between the burners for spoon rests and little cooking chores. Other than that, it functions like any other stove.
I had a 40" stove, a relic from the 50s, in another apartment -- what a beast! I loved it. The oven was 24", but there was plenty of storage space and the space between the burners was valuable counter space, LOL. If I could have taken that stove with me, I would have!
Are you familiar with the website Apartment Therapy and its companion website The Kitchn? Although they now also feature houses, the main focus is still on smaller spaces and you'll see features on fixing up rental properties cost-effectively, as well as on updates and full-remodels of condos and townhouses.
I did a search on "small galley kitchens" and came up with many pages of results: Search | Apartment Therapy
I'm sure you'll get some ideas from these features. Also, if you just check out AT's house tours in general, you'll see lots of photos of kitchens many styles and in all price ranges.
The Kitchn's "Cooks Kitchen Tours" are great and idea-filled. They are the kitchens of people who cook seriously, some in spaces that defy imagination. Cook's Kitchen | The Kitchn
I'm a big fan of a magazine called Small Room Decorating, but it only comes out about four times a year, so it's hard to come by. I save all mine because they are chock-full of fabulous ideas for apartment-dwellers. The publisher also puts out a once-a-year magazine called Small Kitchens. The last one I found I picked up right before Christmas, so it might still be available on some slower-moving news stands. Or if you have a used book store in your area that sells old magazines you might be able to find some back issues. Why they don't have an internet presence I'll never know.
Finally, I echo the suggestion that you hit an IKEA showroom. Their kitchen department is a wonder of storage solutions and cost-effective design.
I lived for quite a few years in an apartment with a kitchen identical in size to the one in your photos. While that one could have used redecorating, too, I have to say I cooked there just as well as I have anywhere else. Galleys are exceptionally efficient if you set them up with thought for how you work. I would note, too, that I've had both 24" stoves and 18" dishwashers before and they are fine if you don't have a family. I have a full-size dishwasher now for only two people and I never run it every day. I would just as soon have a smaller dishwasher and turn it on every night. Oddly enough, they're more expensive, I guess because they don't sell many. But if I were remodeling a galley, I wouldn't waste the space with a 24-inch dishwasher.
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