Is there a single reason pot should not be legalized? (McCain, minimum wage)

[OhioUberAlles]

Originally Posted by kb09

Why would you want to go back to an area of prohibtion on alcohol that caused one of the most violent periods in U.S. history? And please, enlighten me on how a substance can cause damage to society. I'd love to hear your response.

Any substance or specifically marijuana? If you are talking about any substance I would raise the issue of opium and what happened in the 1800s when about 80% of all Chinese adults in southern China were smoking opium courtesy of the British opium traders. During the several decades of peak opium use in southern China society totally fell apart. There was no economy to speak of, families fell apart, people simply lounged around smoking opium all day (read witness accounts of what life was like in southern China in the mid 1800s).

I cannot think of any other time in history when there was such widespread use of similarly strong drugs. I'd have to say the situation in southern China in the mid 1800s was without historical precedent.

[kb09]

Originally Posted by OhioUberAlles

Any substance or specifically marijuana? If you are talking about any substance I would raise the issue of opium and what happened in the 1800s when about 80% of all Chinese adults in southern China were smoking opium courtesy of the British opium traders. During the several decades of peak opium use in southern China society totally fell apart. There was no economy to speak of, families fell apart, people simply lounged around smoking opium all day (read witness accounts of what life was like in southern China in the mid 1800s).

I cannot think of any other time in history when there was such widespread use of similarly strong drugs. I'd have to say the situation in southern China in the mid 1800s was without historical precedent.

And opium destroyed society how? Because people DECIDED to be lazy and not work? Because people made the CHOICE to sit around and smoke all day, opium brought destruction upon the society?

Seems like to me, that it was the human element that caused the breakdown of society. People DECIDED to stop working and they DECIDED to use. Opium didn't break down society; it was simply a tool used to put blame on once everyone managed to sober up and realize that everything went to hell because of their CHOICES.

[OhioUberAlles]

Originally Posted by kb09

And opium destroyed society how? Because people DECIDED to be lazy and not work? Because people made the CHOICE to sit around and smoke all day, opium brought destruction upon the society?

Seems like to me, that it was the human element that caused the breakdown of society. People DECIDED to stop working and they DECIDED to use. Opium didn't break down society; it was simply a tool used to put blame on once everyone managed to sober up and realize that everything went to hell because of their CHOICES.

I don't believe the presence of opium made them use opium or made them stop working, but once so many people were actively using opium the implosion of their society was inevitable.

[nevergoingback]

http://blog.norml.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/norml_remember_prohibition_.jpg (broken link)

[nevergoingback]

The parallels between two American social institutions, marijuana prohibition and slavery, are many: 1.) millions and millions of people end up in bondage; 2.) once in the system, you are a marked for life; 3.) a Draconian police state is required to fully enforce laws of either kind; 4.) in bondage, one loses a citizen’s inalienable rights; 5.) both social institutions, slavery and marijuana prohibition, are thoroughly racist from their inception to their operation; 6.) both the slave trade and the marijuana trade create vast profits for the wrong elements in society; 7.) both social institutions deeply divide and scar America, and pray primarily on people of color, breaking their families apart; 8.) neighboring countries involved with the “trade” become destabilized; 9.) the proponents of slavery and marijuana prohibition attract the lovers of incarceration and coercion, who, while defending their flawed and inhumane views from the pulpit and the state house, vigorously resist any re-examination of their “facts” or reasoning; and 10.) both have disastrous long term outcomes for America.

NORML Blog » Blog Archive » Marijuana Prohibition—America’s Most Tragically Failed Social Policy Since Slavery—20-million Arrested, Countless Lives Destroyed

[NWPAguy]

Originally Posted by leftydan6

Considering the chronic pain is genetic and a result of my long athletic career, it has nothing to do with my health. My family has a history of joint problems (both sisters and my father have had knee surgery, mother has had wrist surgery, all for degenerative issues) and I was a 4 sport athlete in high school and a two sport athlete in college. I broke bones when I was in the 90th percentile in weight as a middle schooler and when I was an undersized Center on my college hockey team. My back has chronic pain because I grew 10 inches in a school year and have had a lot of pain in my back from the time I was in 7th grade. I played through the pain enough to be ranked in California in tennis, to play on the #3 American Legion baseball team in California, to play on the #1 high school hockey team in America and on a college baseball team that finished #5 in the country and led the nation in wins.

A fine athletic resume, my friend. You must not have been doing much smoking back in those days. Any athlete with half a brain knows that smoking ANYTHING is a huge no-no when it comes to maintaining stamina and prowess. Now look what has happened.......

Originally Posted by leftydan6

That test was a joke...I got a perfect score on it too...and every other easy standardized math test in high school. I was given the "Golden State Math Award" two years running.

Sure you did. And I was given the bronze medal in a "Pump and Run" competition in which I engaged two years ago.

When you dig through the facts, you discover that I placed 3rd out of 4 people... which for a chronic non-athlete such as myself, wasn't half bad. Your "Golden State Math Award" could be comparatively meaningless. I placed first in the state of NJ my junior year in the physics Science League competition... but that didn't necessarily make me the best teenage physicist in New Jersey. It made me the best out of those who competed.

Originally Posted by leftydan6

The California Bar actually requires years of study to even stand a chance of passing, let alone finishing in the top 5%.

*yawn*

Originally Posted by leftydan6

Again, with the "you will be judged on judgement day because you are an evil infidel"

Again, with the changing my words to fit your purposes. You will be judged on judgment day based upon the way you live your life. That judgment is not up for me to pass down. I hope you change your life to the point where you are judged deserving... but nobody who insults the Bible by calling it "a book of fairy tales" will be judged deserving. (I didn't make that up. It's in "my book of fairy tales". I would rather live a good life for 100 years or so and find out that your belief about the afterlife or lack thereof is right... than to live an ignorant, pot-smoking, anti-religious-venom-spewing life for 70 years or so and learn- when it's too late- that my belief about God, heaven and hell is right.)

Originally Posted by leftydan6

Whichever Christian church you are from is originally based from those evil Catholics. There have been countless religious wars that have split the once unified Christian church into splinter groups, all more radical and crazy than the next.

Produce proof, my friend... and furthermore, tell me how this relates to why pot shouldn't be legalized.

Originally Posted by leftydan6

Yes, but if your body has too much fat, you will suffer MANY problems. For me to suffer organ failure and all that jazz, I'd need to lose about 45 pounds, and that would only happen if there was some kind of major disaster or I was dying of cancer.

Which will happen sooner than you think if you keep smoking pot. There's a reason why chemicals contained in pot smoke are called "carcinogenic".

Originally Posted by leftydan6

If you needed to be on the phone to stay awake, you were a hazard on the road and were FAR more dangerous than any pothead. Shame on you.

I have never even come close to causing an accident while I was driving on the interstate talking on my cell phone to help me stay awake. I can guarantee you that I was much safer than a stoned driver would've been.

Originally Posted by leftydan6

Rarely, and only in moderation. Probably three to four times a year I will indulge in wine or scotch...maybe a beer if it's a special occaision.

Do some research. You're consuming a chemical which is not only recognized by your body as poison, but is metabolized into many things including formaldehyde. Would you drink formaldehyde? Hello, nasty stuff you smelled in 7th grade when they gave you the frog dissection lab?

Originally Posted by leftydan6

Oxy leads to more Heroin addictions than Marijuana because it is the same drug, just a different form.

When used as prescribed, I doubt it leads to heroin addiction. That's about as sensible as saying that going to a shooting range to do target practice leads to fatal car accidents. You're comparing apples to oranges. If someone does not obtain heroin (illegally of course), that person cannot become, nor be, addicted to heroin.

Originally Posted by leftydan6

Marijuana HAS medicinal benefits and was "created by god", so I don't understand why a Christian would be MORE supportive of a synthetic Pharmaceutical being legal than a natural herb.

I am in favor of marijuana being legal ONLY FOR SPECIFIC MEDICINAL PURPOSES where it is the only known drug that can help the ill person and its benefits are judged to outweigh its risks and detriments. I favor any drug being legal for, and used only for, medicinal purposes under the close watch of a doctor with morals and scruples. I am against all addictive and possibly mind-altering drugs being legal for any other purpose.

Originally Posted by leftydan6

Again, confusing hard drugs with Marijuana, which only causes murders or robberies due the money associated with the black market.

They're called "potheads" for a reason. You never hear of anyone being called a "cigarhead" or an "acetaminophenhead" or even a "Prozachead"... but there is "pothead", "crackhead", "boozehead", etc. If money associated with the black market, for purchase of pot, causes murders and robberies... PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BUY POT. But yet they do... because they're ignorant. America is getting collectively more ignorant as time goes on, wouldn't you agree?

Originally Posted by leftydan6

Nobody would ever kill for a "fix" of weed.

And for your proof we have the following....... nothing.

Originally Posted by leftydan6

Meth leads to violent crimes, but marijuana does the opposite, as it's a relaxant. Ending prohibition would immediately eliminate ALL gang activity related to the drugs legalized. Marijuana would be useless to street dealers if it was sold at liquor stores in neat packages.

Ask your friendly neighborhood police officers what they think about legalization of pot. Tell me how many favor it and how many believe that it will cause more headaches for them.

Originally Posted by leftydan6

Prohibitionists like you really have no clue about history.

You'd be surprised how much of a clue I have about history. I know that a lot of chemicals were abused back in the day, before people knew any better. Now with advances in science, we know better. Lots of people smoked way back when and it was acceptable... in the last 50 years or so we have gotten to know the real lowdown on tobacco products. But yet, people still smoke. Back then it was simple ignorance because they didn't know any better... today it is pure stupidity because we do know better. Whenever you smoke anything, you are taking carcinogenic compounds into your body for no good reason. At least when you eat, even if you take in compounds that are THOUGHT to be carcinogenic (because if they were known carcinogens, they wouldn't be allowed into food unless of course the FDA got paid off under the table by sleazebags), you're still doing something vital to your body's function (EATING). Smoking is not vital to a body's function. I should know. I've never smoked a puff of anything and my body functions perfectly well.

Originally Posted by leftydan6

Don't you remember the last time religious nuts forced their prohibitionist ideals on us?

I'm 29 years old. I was born in 1980. Not even my parents were around at that time. So no, I don't remember the last time blah blah blah.

Originally Posted by leftydan6

It resulted in a period of lawlessness and organized crime that had not been seen in America's history.

And we don't have lawlessness and organized crime now... yay. *groan*

Originally Posted by leftydan6

It was also a contributing factor to the great depression and the repeal was a huge factor in the recovery of our economy.

Looking for proof of this statement...... man, nothing again. I'm starting to feel like I'm wasting my time debating this with you.

Originally Posted by leftydan6

All making something desirable illegal does is it gives power to organized crime and those willing to break the law to make money.

That has been the case since the beginning of time, practically. So what we need to do is throttle up punishments for breakages of these laws... and make sure that our police officers spend their time trying to bust these crooks instead of sitting in their cars at speed traps.

Originally Posted by leftydan6

Instead of making everything illegal, we need to teach people how to be responsible about their use and we need to help those who have addictions or problems associated with their use.

I am a high school teacher. My wife is a first grade teacher. There is one thing we have noticed about our kids, despite the 10+ year age gap between them. They are being brought up with no sense of responsibility (for the most part). An alarming percentage of our students just don't seem to give a rat's patootie about doing what they're supposed to do or taking responsibility for their actions. Kids understand by their teenage years that they can get through life without having to be responsible. Look at that "octuplet mom" who can't even afford to feed the six kids she has, and then she tries for more kids? Even if it were ONE more kid instead of eight, if she can't afford six, she sure as heck can't afford seven! But yet she did it anyway. Why do we have abortion clinics? Because people aren't sexually responsible and furthermore they're not familially responsible. My students like to blame me for the punishments they receive- if they fail my class, they find it to be MY fault despite how they have seven zeroes in my grade book from assignments they chose not to turn in. If they are given ISS for being tardy to my class repeatedly, I'm to blame for logging all of their tardies ("My other teachers don't count tardies!"). I once had a student's mom get hot on me for the fact that her daughter was failing my class and thusly could not perform with the cheerleading squad despite how she was the captain and she had to take tumbling lessons which cost the mother $100 per month. Her failure was MY FAULT despite how she repeatedly refused to hand in her work and never sought extra help from me.

I have a guy in my class who was accepted to WEST POINT. That is the United States Military Academy. You want to talk about having to have responsibility? I don't think it gets any more serious than the military! However, this guy leaves his required materials (textbook, calculator, etc.) in his car regularly. I have had to tell him numerous times that they won't accept that crap at West Point and therefore I'm not going to accept it in my class.

Kids grow up with no sense of responsibility because their parents don't instill it into them... and I believe that one of the biggest culprits is the United States government. If you don't want to work, you can go on welfare. If you want to have lots of illegitimate children that you can't afford to raise, the taxpayers will pay you to raise them. If you've never sought job training by yourself, the government will provide it for you, free of charge. If you cannot afford higher education, the government will hand it to you.

With all of this in mind... and especially with how well America has proven its sense of responsibility with alcohol (oh, NOBODY ever gets drunk in public nor causes car accidents, public disturbances, or conception of illegitimate children which will have to be paid for by welfare, while drunk.... NOBODY) and cigarettes (nobody has ever smoked around me when I haven't wanted to smell it... I have NEVER come home stinking like a cigarette)..... what makes you think that Americans could be more responsible with marijuana?

[NWPAguy]

Originally Posted by kb09

If you needed to talk on the phone to stay awake while driving, then you were already a hazard on the road. It is against the law to drive while sleepy (and while extremely upset too).

I could see a law against driving while extremely tired but driving while extremely upset? Puh-leeze. How could a cop ever prove a state of being "extremely upset" in a court of law, if the driver didn't give obvious evidence such as screaming obscenities at the cop from the moment he approached the driver's window?

Originally Posted by kb09

Don't you realize that you've just given a reason why pot should be legalized (why should the anti prohibition side try? You're making the point for us)?

Apparently I don't. Congratulations on being more enlightened than I am. *rolls eyes*

Originally Posted by kb09

You make the drug in question legal and you'll see the robberies and murders that are the cause of trafficking said drug will disappear. Pot isn't physically addictive enough that people will steal to get the money to buy it.

Wanna bet??!! People will steal to get the money to buy candy, or just steal the freaking candy, for goodness sakes! What makes you think they won't steal to be able to afford their precious marijuana?

Originally Posted by kb09

Why would you want to go back to an area of prohibtion on alcohol that caused one of the most violent periods in U.S. history? And please, enlighten me on how a substance can cause damage to society. I'd love to hear your response.

A SUBSTANCE won't damage society. Its ABUSERS will damage society. Families have been ripped apart and countless thousands (or millions) of lives lost on account of alcohol abuse... but it isn't the alcohol itself that causes all of those tragedies. It is the people who consume too much alcohol and then go off and do stupid things which cause the tragedies. If Americans could always self-govern and self-regulate, I would have no problem at all with all of the drugs presently illegal in America becoming legal. Let the people abuse them in private as long as they harm nobody... their day will come and they will be individually judged... so it doesn't matter a whole lot to me above and beyond the fact that I don't like knowing that there are "lost people" out there. If I never have to encounter anyone who is intoxicated in any way, and if my life is never adversely impacted by someone who is using a chemical I choose not to use, I couldn't care less if the chemicals were legalized.

In the end, keeping these drugs illegal is partially to protect us from ourselves. As a conservative, I'm not sure I like that notion but its benefits outweigh its detriments. Americans have chosen to be ignorant and stupid, and since nobody wants to be a victim of an ignorant and/or stupid person's irresponsible actions, the drugs remain illegal.

How much would you sacrifice to make pot legal? Stoned drivers can kill people. If pot were legalized and the annual vehicular accident fatalities attributable to pot usage increased by 50% the next year, would you care?

Now how about if your child, or your spouse, or your mother, were one of those extra victims? NOW would you care?

If the stats wouldn't bother you but a hit close to home would, then you're being selfish by saying that pot should be legalized. Everyone killed in a marijuana-related car accident is someone's child/parent/spouse/friend/whatever.

[Braunwyn]

Originally Posted by NWPAguy

Do some research. You're consuming a chemical which is not only recognized by your body as poison, but is metabolized into many things including formaldehyde. Would you drink formaldehyde? Hello, nasty stuff you smelled in 7th grade when they gave you the frog dissection lab?

Formaldehyde is a metabolite of mj? Interesting. Do you have a link?

[NWPAguy]

Originally Posted by Braunwyn

Formaldehyde is a metabolite of mj? Interesting. Do you have a link?

I said it was a metabolic by-product of alcohol. I don't know if it is a metabolic by-product of marijuana. I could post a link but it's easily Google-searched.

[Braunwyn]

Originally Posted by NWPAguy

I said it was a metabolic by-product of alcohol. I don't know if it is a metabolic by-product of marijuana. I could post a link but it's easily Google-searched.

Oh, I thought you were talking about mj. Sorry about that. I did do a search for it but didn't find anything. That's why I asked.