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Then how come places like Hawaii, Singapore, Malaysia, and even Argentina (legit a lot of Argentines have German, French, and Italian ancestry) are diverse and doing well for themselves? I mean look at Singapore it is a developed country and it took just three decades to become very developed like it is now, and mean that isn't because of diversity obviously, but I can argue that since a lot of Chinese, Malaysians, and Tamils live side by side in Singapore I can pretty much say that Singapore has done well for itself under diversity.
Seriously?
You clearly don't know much about Singapore and Malaysia.
A majority of Singaporeans don't feel immigrants do enough to integrate into Singapore society.
And Malaysia is absolutely horrible with race relations. I lived there for 17 years, so I had a front row seat to the government approved discrimination by the majority Malay against Chinese, Tamil, and other minorities.
True, the different races "live side by side" but that happens in the USA also, eh? The Malays, Chinese, and Tamil may live side by side and still often hate each other. Of course, they will put on a false face for the sake of appearing to get along. But my Malay friends would tell me, in private, how horrible the Chinese were. And my Chinese friends told me how disgusting Malay culture was.
The huge difference is that the press is tightly controlled in Singapore and Malaysia so that we in the west rarely see their dirty laundry aired. In contrast, the press in the USA bends over backwards every day to find some new outrage to report upon.
I am not saying diversity is bad, but we are too quick to think that the USA is worse than other countries when, in fact, we probably have one of the most integrated societies. Accepting diversity is fine, but this all-out effort to search for and enforce racial diversity is counter productive. We should continue to accept legal immigration, but recognize that not all creeds and cultures are worth adding to the mix. For example, I would hate to see Islam get a strong foothold in the USA.
Trump campaigned specifically on these issues, and won the presidency, handily. His campaign clearly resonated with the electorate. You can spend your time(like Hillary has) trying to find alternative reasons to explain it if you wish, but a vast number of Americans were able to identify with his message. That we are not better off with millions of Latinos in our country. That banning Muslims is a good idea and will make us safer. That fighting endless wars in the Middle East is not to our benefit.
I'm telling you that the US was designed as a WHITE COUNTRY from day one, but I reject your assumption that "racist" is somehow a pejorative. My forefathers were racial realists. Right or wrong, slaves were viewed as property, not as men, so the "All men are created equal" credo did not apply to them. You're well aware of that.OK, so that's what it is. You don't agree with him. Strange though that you would try to bolster that by mentioning "the American people". A group that you earlier claimed "hardly exists"...This "rather small base" that put him into office...You JUST TOLD ME that "the only thing that really matters is America today". You can't have it both ways, my friend. Our history is our history. You can't simply ignore the parts which don't support your position.What a heartwarming anecdotal story. And yet, every single statistic suggests that this can't possibly be true. Black and brown students consistently underperform against their white counterparts in every category. But it's very clever of you to include Asians into the mix, which would offset that disparity. What you're trying to do is embarrassingly transparent.You've offered a very thoughtful diatribe, Phetaroi. Nowhere within it did you answer my question and list for us all of the benefits of diversity. That's the topic of this thread. I'll give you another chance. Tell us how the US is better off with diversity. Diversity accounts for ~80% of our violent crime. Diversity accounts for a substantial portion of our tax burden. Diversity has had an overwhelmingly negative impact upon our culture and our communities. Please tell us how diversity is good for us. How is it helping our society? We're not seeing it. Please enlighten us.
I don't need your second chance. I've been very clear in my post about my feelings about diversity and the type of people who are anti-diversity.
The irony for me is that it was white people who started this whole "diversity" thing on this continent in the first place. People of European extraction deciding that they needed to be able to trade with Asian cultures, conquer the lands of brown skinned people without doing them the dubious courtesy of simply wiping them all out entirely, and bringing slaves here from Africa.
If diversity sucks so much, maybe all of us white people should go back to Europe and let the Natives, the first people to settle in and populate this continent, have it back?
Oh no, that would not do for a white supremacist or nationalist argument at all, would it? 'Murica is a white country! Ohh...kayyy... So whoever, by superior force of military strength, is able to overwhelm another population and take control of a land mass, has some kind of mandate to say that the nation that follows is meant for their best benefit and the hell with everyone else? Or what? I mean it's real cute until one day a stronger power rises in the world, and subjugates YOUR home. Frankly I'd much rather NOT live in a world where humanity lives that way. I'd much rather solve problems of cultural or ideological difference, resource distribution, or varying fertility in ethnic populations, with blending, trade, and mobility (immigration) rather than constant offense and defense. I consider a gradual shift toward more peaceful solutions, generally involving more acceptance of diversity, not less, to be a matter of evolution.
But then, I'm not only a woman...I also grew up watching Star Trek...so... A basic inability to peacefully find ways to coexist with others who are unlike oneself, comes off as downright barbaric to me. No matter the skin color of the person espousing the sentiment.
But can you even say who is white and who isn't?? Can you say who qualifies as "visible minority"?? I mean, with exactitude. Because in 2019, this is very, very important.
But can you even say who is white and who isn't?? Can you say who qualifies as "visible minority"?? I mean, with exactitude. Because in 2019, this is very, very important.
I think that the less important it becomes, the better it'll be.
I mean, my white son is planning to marry his black girlfriend, and I hope that their mixed children can one day be comfortable and at home among people of any ethnicity, color, religion, background, etc. What makes us the same is greater than what makes us different. And I've got more in common with a lot of people of various other races and origins, than I have an ultra rich person of my own race, or many of my own dirt poor, southern relatives, with whom I have little contact.
So I had to go back and review your thoughts, you seem to mostly be criticizing a pro-diversity movement that assigns a premium value to anyone not of the majority population group, as someone who "adds diversity." I'm part of a situation that relates to this actually. I volunteer for an organization, it's a private club but becoming a member is not difficult or expensive. Several of our lifestyle's conventions and classes (including a leadership conference I'll be attending in March) are focused on diversity. It's become a point of concern that our membership is often overwhelmingly middle to upper middle class white people, and mostly cis-hetero, also. Well part of that, frankly especially the last bit, is just basic percentage of a demographic that exists in the surrounding general population. If we were looking at the membership of the club in particular, I know that I probably have more LGTBQ+ friends than most people do, but I don't see them being the majority of our membership since they're a small minority of the overall population around us. We are not, however, opposed in any way to more showing up. We would love to see more people of color in our establishment and have made a concerted effort to try and get more art on our gallery walls of different skin colors and body types, as one of the things we try to do, to put on a welcoming impression. And yet, as I have told others on this subject... All I feel I can do, is celebrate and appreciate those unlike myself when they show up. I cannot control who comes to the party, all I can do is make sure everyone knows that they're invited and welcome! And then back that up, walk my talk, should they decide they wish to be there.
We aren't giving discounts on memberships to people who meet some kind of a diversity-value-criteria, but we do enforce anti-discrimination rules, and we also make very sure that other rules regarding expected conduct are enforced in a non-discriminatory way.
Honestly I'm betting if you asked a black American person if they could choose:
Option A: Real life absolute non-discrimination in the entirety of the American criminal justice system, from enforcement to sentencing, and actual enforcement against cops who use excessive force or who commit crimes of rape or theft against other citizens (frankly I'd advocate for double-sentencing if a cop commits a crime.)
~OR~
Option B: Affirmative action where people of color get preferential treatment in college admissions or hiring quotas.
I would bet my next paycheck that a significant majority of people of color in America would choose the first one.
So what I'm saying is that I think that your focus (and maybe that of many people) is in the wrong place. Rather than thinking that we are incentivizing diversity-adding people...what is more valuable and desired is to STOP being punitive and hostile to their presence. Just treat a person who is different...like any other person...because even the ones who look like you might be really different in ways you don't necessarily see. Just as you say. And those who appear different in easily detectable ways might be far more similar to you or anyone, than you'd think.
I think that the less important it becomes, the better it'll be.
I mean, my white son is planning to marry his black girlfriend, and I hope that their mixed children can one day be comfortable and at home among people of any ethnicity, color, religion, background, etc. What makes us the same is greater than what makes us different. And I've got more in common with a lot of people of various other races and origins, than I have an ultra rich person of my own race, or many of my own dirt poor, southern relatives, with whom I have little contact.
So I had to go back and review your thoughts, you seem to mostly be criticizing a pro-diversity movement that assigns a premium value to anyone not of the majority population group, as someone who "adds diversity." I'm part of a situation that relates to this actually. I volunteer for an organization, it's a private club but becoming a member is not difficult or expensive. Several of our lifestyle's conventions and classes (including a leadership conference I'll be attending in March) are focused on diversity. It's become a point of concern that our membership is often overwhelmingly middle to upper middle class white people, and mostly cis-hetero, also. Well part of that, frankly especially the last bit, is just basic percentage of a demographic that exists in the surrounding general population. If we were looking at the membership of the club in particular, I know that I probably have more LGTBQ+ friends than most people do, but I don't see them being the majority of our membership since they're a small minority of the overall population around us. We are not, however, opposed in any way to more showing up. We would love to see more people of color in our establishment and have made a concerted effort to try and get more art on our gallery walls of different skin colors and body types, as one of the things we try to do, to put on a welcoming impression. And yet, as I have told others on this subject... All I feel I can do, is celebrate and appreciate those unlike myself when they show up. I cannot control who comes to the party, all I can do is make sure everyone knows that they're invited and welcome! And then back that up, walk my talk, should they decide they wish to be there.
We aren't giving discounts on memberships to people who meet some kind of a diversity-value-criteria, but we do enforce anti-discrimination rules, and we also make very sure that other rules regarding expected conduct are enforced in a non-discriminatory way.
Honestly I'm betting if you asked a black American person if they could choose:
Option A: Real life absolute non-discrimination in the entirety of the American criminal justice system, from enforcement to sentencing, and actual enforcement against cops who use excessive force or who commit crimes of rape or theft against other citizens (frankly I'd advocate for double-sentencing if a cop commits a crime.)
~OR~
Option B: Affirmative action where people of color get preferential treatment in college admissions or hiring quotas.
I would bet my next paycheck that a significant majority of people of color in America would choose the first one.
So what I'm saying is that I think that your focus (and maybe that of many people) is in the wrong place. Rather than thinking that we are incentivizing diversity-adding people...what is more valuable and desired is to STOP being punitive and hostile to their presence. Just treat a person who is different...like any other person...because even the ones who look like you might be really different in ways you don't necessarily see. Just as you say. And those who appear different in easily detectable ways might be far more similar to you or anyone, than you'd think.
Yours is a reasonable way to look at the issue. By “your way” , I mean “diversity is good” or “ diversity is bad”. Along with the practical ways that it plays out. 90% of people look at it with the same concepts in mind.
But I don’t care about any of that. I’m interested in the worship aspect. We all worship something, as Dylan sang. And in the end, our worship choices are all that matters.
Modern society worships Diversity. But it’s a false god. One with no clothes on.
I didn't ask for your "feelings" about diversity. I asked you to list all of the reasons "diversity" is good for the US. You haven't done that, and you won't do that, because you CAN'T do that.
You also ignored all of the other points I raised, not that this surprises me in any way. As I expected, just like a cockroach in the basement when the light comes on, you'll just skitter off, never to be seen again.
I don't take orders from you. I posted what I wanted to post. Of course you're very welcome to declare victory; such declarations are meaningless. And I post on this general topic often, and will continue to do so when there are posts worthy of comment.
People should leave homogenous societies alone. They’re none of your business. You have no right to force “diversity” on them. Some people suggest diversity improves economies. So what? 3rd world cultures have the right to exist with the influx of hordes of first worlders immigrating to their countries to “improve” their economies. The Immigration Act of 1965 is the worst act to ever happen to the U.S.
Leave homogenous societies alone. Those societies should defend themselves from the crazed diversity click be any means.
I'm not giving you orders or declaring victory. I'm asking you simply to explain your position. I and many others would love to understand how it is that diversity is good for the US. Your position seems to be "Well, we brought these people here, so it's our fault", and "my black and brown students were better than my white ones"(anecdotal and laughable). Oh, and "Americans are arrogant. Bangkok has a better subway system than NY". This offers us nothing.By all means, KEEP POSTING. We're all ears! We would love to have you or anyone else explain how diversity is good for the US. We're not seeing it. You're a life-long educator and a seasoned world traveler. Please educate us.
Let me make this clear. No matter what I would say, you wouldn't change your mind one iota. So there's no point in continuing an exchange with you.
'Muricans who ride the bus and minorities are not riding in the very back consider that to be forced diversity. Walking down a city street past an Indian restaurant or, heaven forbid, a mosque is forced diversity. We just don't have enough ghettos to please them.
Yours is a reasonable way to look at the issue. By “your way” , I mean “diversity is good” or “ diversity is bad”. Along with the practical ways that it plays out. 90% of people look at it with the same concepts in mind.
But I don’t care about any of that. I’m interested in the worship aspect. We all worship something, as Dylan sang. And in the end, our worship choices are all that matters.
Modern society worships Diversity. But it’s a false god. One with no clothes on.
Are you telling me to stop being so darned reasonable and shut up so you can holler hyperbole instead? lol? Sorry, trying to understand what "This is reasonable and most people look at it this way, but I don't care about that. Here's a very extreme statement. Focus on that."
What?
I'm saying that nobody needs anybody to "worship" Diversity so much as diverse people would like to be treated with exactly the consideration and basic human dignity and right to exist, as those of the most dominant group. You don't need to hoist anybody up on your shoulders and carry him, just quit trying to stomp him into the dirt. But it's played out time and again that when a minority group, or a group that has traditionally been afforded less power or autonomy or lower status, by society in general, says "You know what, we're people too and would like to be treated like it. We want the same rights." the dominant group has a tendency to see that as an attack. When your superiority is challenged, it does feel like something is being taken away from you, I guess.
I've never in my life been on board with the thinking that a lot of folks seem to have that there is one right, good, wholesome way to live and be, and that which is different is scary and threatening. I don't get it.
I guess in that sense, I "worship" diversity because a fully homogeneous society is anathema to my idea of happiness. People who want to enforce conformity, who feel best in a world of sameness and want to punish and stamp out anyone who doesn't comply, have been the enemies of my peace of mind for pretty much my whole life.
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