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I strongly disagree. I can't tell Sicilians from Greeks that easily, whereas I can tell Sicilians from north and central Italians, as well as from French and Spaniards.
Some Sicilians are very light, and pan-Italian looking but most can much more easily be mistaken for Greek than anything Western European.
I also have a very Greek appearance myself. Sometimes people even think I am Lebanese. But once I say I am Sicilian, people say they know at least one other who looks just like me, either a cousin or a Sicilian-American friend.
Most of the Sicilians I know almost look central or northern Italian, including myself, and those who look southern Italian don't look Greek. They look southern Italian. I'm agreeing there is a fine line with the Greeks, but if you gave someone in Sicily or Greece a sample of 50 photo pairs, they'd pick the Sicilian and the Greek correctly at least 85% of the time.
Most of the Sicilians I know almost look central or northern Italian, including myself, and those who look southern Italian don't look Greek. They look southern Italian. I'm agreeing there is a fine line with the Greeks, but if you gave someone in Sicily or Greece a sample of 50 photo pairs, they'd pick the Sicilian and the Greek correctly at least 85% of the time.
I've done it multiple times on another site and people can't guess them correctly except maybe half of the time.
If Greeks don't look Sicilian to you, who do you think Greeks look like? The ones I don't think look Sicilian are Spaniards/Portuguese.
Most of the Sicilians I know do not look northern/central Italian so I don't know who you're seeing, because my experience and yours definitely do not match. No one on my father's side looks like that either and they are all from Messina.
Sicily had a Norman presence long ago, reflected in the light complexion and blue eyes of many modern Sicilians. Also, the Italian equivalent of Norman names like "Roger" (Ruggiero) and "William" (Gugliemo) are popular there. And much of the architecture of Palermo, such as the Cathedral, has a Norman influence.
Sicily had a Norman presence long ago, reflected in the light complexion and blue eyes of many modern Sicilians. Also, the Italian equivalent of Norman names like "Roger" (Ruggiero) and "William" (Gugliemo) are popular there. And much of the architecture of Palermo, such as the Cathedral, has a Norman influence.
This is mostly true of western Sicily, like Palermo. But genetically there is not much Northern European admixture in Sicilians despite light coloring being common. It's like Ashkenazi Jews.. many of them have light complexions and light features but they are genetically less influenced by Northern European genes than you'd think given their looks.
It surprises me, given that genetic studies put Sicilians as peripheral Europeans (i.e. along with Greeks being genetically akin to Cypriots, Turks, etc), that there are so many who are blonde and blue eyed. But as I said most of the ones I know look like southeastern Europeans.
Sicily had a Norman presence long ago, reflected in the light complexion and blue eyes of many modern Sicilians. Also, the Italian equivalent of Norman names like "Roger" (Ruggiero) and "William" (Gugliemo) are popular there. And much of the architecture of Palermo, such as the Cathedral, has a Norman influence.
Agreed. They are more common around Palermo, and less common in the eastern part of the Italy, though the descendants of the Norman strain are now diffused throughout Sicily. Norman churches are more prevalent in the island's western side and Baroque ones are more prevalent in the island's eastern side.
King Roger (Re' Ruggiero) ruled Sicily from Palermo, in the west. The name Ruggiero is also found in western Sicily, and not often heard in eastern Sicily.
Eastern Sicilians are more likely to have Greek derived names and surnames, I have noticed. Western Sicily has more surnames in common with Malta (Spiteri, Camilleri, Farruggia, Conti, etc.) that may be of Italic or Norman origins.
Just some personal anecdotes, going back about 15-20 years ago, and general observations.
Friends from Palermo insisted on personal hospitality, that is it is considered a personal insult if you do not eat and sleep at their houses/apartments if invited, similar to my experience in Latin America, whereas an invite to even eat at the house of a Milanese is rare and to sleep over almost unheard of. To make the contrast further, in the US even when visiting family I'd prefer to stay in a hotel.
In Italy's big cities, including Palermo, double even triple parking is common. Slept over some friends' apartment in Palermo, the next morning I looked out the window and the friends' car was stuck because of double parking. They bounced the offensive car back into the middle of the street to clear the way for their own car, and left the other car in the middle of the street where a long line of traffic starting forming behind it and they merrily went on their way without a care.
Best bread I've ever had was in Palermo, as well as the best canoli, like the ones you could find in the Italian-American neighborhoods in New York during the first 50 years or so of immigration, but increasingly rare in the past 25 years or so. In any case, at least up to 15-20 years ago, still plenty of family-owned fresh bakeries and pastry shops, while they had almost disappeared in Milan and other cities in Lombardia, even in Reggio Calabria.
Standing at the port of Reggio Calabria over the Straits of Messina into Sicily you can feel a special energy waiting for you over there.
True, most Sicilians do not want to leave, but do so because of relative economic opportunities.
I once fell in love with a Sicilian girl, Palermitana, but at an age where reason trumps the heart, and I did not pursue the relationship: I would have married her in a heartbeat, the mother muse of gentleness, but at the same time I did not want to marry Italy's brutal 43% effective income tax rate at the time (up to around 45% very recently), and she wasn't budging from Sicily. So I returned to the US instead where my effective tax rate on my own business and investments is so low it's laughable, while she wound up teaching Latin and Greek in Pavia. Whose loss?
Greek immigration into southern Italy and Sicily, especially eastern Sicily, continued right through the Ottoman period, it's not just an ancient phenomenon, and those areas where some remnant of Greek is still spoken, some of which have dwindled to only virtual existence over the past 15-20 years, trace a good portion of their language to the Greek of the past several centuries, not ancient Greek. In other words, the Greek communities of Greece proper and southern Italy/eastern Sicily have maintained some kind of relationship, in fits and starts, over the centuries, a new start began in the 1990s, but they're in another fit now, I imagine, with the current financial and economic crisis.
You may or may not gather any useful tips and insights from these personal anecdotes and observations in a bid to satisy your curiousity and my bid to cleanse my soul.
In any case, I agree that Sicily is not part of an Italy trip, but a trip by itself, which also speaks for itself.
Or perhaps a trip across the middle of the Mediterranean, including Tunisia, Malta, Sicily, points along the boot and heel of Italy, transition east across the Ionian Sea to southern Peleponnosos, Crete, other points in the Aegean, Cyprus, Lebanon, Israel. You might be able to find a cruise like that, or combine two or three.
Just some personal anecdotes, going back about 15-20 years ago, and general observations.
Friends from Palermo insisted on personal hospitality, that is it is considered a personal insult if you do not eat and sleep at their houses/apartments if invited, similar to my experience in Latin America, whereas an invite to even eat at the house of a Milanese is rare and to sleep over almost unheard of. To make the contrast further, in the US even when visiting family I'd prefer to stay in a hotel.
I like your whole post, including the energy felt at Messina, and looking across the strait to the Italian mainland, about 1.5 miles away.
I picked this part to quote because it stands out. I have relatives there. They are offended indeed if you don't go eat and sleep at their houses. Sure, you put money in your pocket, but you also inherit quite a bit of drama, if you are related. That said, I have gone over and not even let them know I was in the area, and they came to find out. Thus, I am probably excommunicated. Fine, there was a reason for that. I didn't enjoy the drama from previous visits.
On the other hand, Sicilians who have moved north and have assimilated are so much easier to deal with. There are also Sicilians who have moved north and have NOT assimilated, and they are NOT viewed favorably. It's nice to go to someone's house and say, "Hey, you know, I'm going to be day tripping to Venice or the Cinque Terre, so I won't be around for dinner" and they say ok. (Of course, you'll have your morning coffee and cornetto (croissant) before heading out the door).
The one that took the cake was one trip where I flew Seattle-Toronto-Rome-Catania and was exhausted. Maternal relatives came to pick me up. I was to stay with paternal relatives. When I got to the home of the relatives who picked me up, I saw a bed/couch in a day room, and took a snooze. I called the "destination" relatives that I would be over in a few hours, slightly before dinner. Their answer was "Siamo offesi," which means "We're offended." I thought "Maybe you need to sit your ass on 3 plane segments for about 15 hours across a 9 hour time difference and see how you feel." That's not hospitality. That's rude and a guilt trip. Needless to say, the farthest these people have been is Paris and, from their stories, I would have been embarrassed to have traveled with them.
A lot of people with ancestral ties to Sicily but were raised in northern Italy LOVE Sicily but don't care for their old-world Sicilian relatives in Sicily who haven't been around the block. It's common.
So in terms of warmth, openness and hospitality you'd rank Greeks with Sicilians and higher than mainland Italians?
In my experience, Sicilians are at least superficially warm, open and hospitable, but they can turn on you just as quickly, becoming cold, closed, and hostile. Northern Italians are not really hospitable, they are reserved, but a friendship that develops over time can be sincere, mutually profitable, and long term, with slowly progressive degrees of hospitality over a period of years. Can't really compare all mainland Italians region by region, it really doesn't work that way anyway, we are all individuals. I can relate only my personal experiences and anecdotes.
Hence, again, in my experience, Greeks are not that openly warm, open and hospitable, but always ready to help if asked, sometimes even going the extra mile which left me with deep impressions.
In any case, you do well to concentrate the Italian leg of your trip on Rome, along with the Lazio coast, and Florence, along with the Tuscan countryside, but perhaps any extra time in Naples and the Amalfi coast would be better spent in Venice - following the typical Italian triad of Rome, Florence, Venice - truly a unique place in its own right, hard to believe that you do not find it appealing. Unless, of course, as you mentioned, you think that you will return to Italy again some day in future. And, having said that, indeed the view of Mount Vesuvius from the nearby coast is haunting and the archeological sites of Hercolaneum and Pompeii are also one of a kind and breath-taking.
Anyway, enjoy!
Last edited by bale002; 01-21-2013 at 09:16 AM..
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