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After a long battle and being a strong boy, Milo decided he was tired and ready to go. Lucky for me that he had no nose bleeds! He had started to show signs of twitching which lead me to believe that his cancer, taking the path of least resistence would soon go to his brain. I told him to let me know in a way that I could understand, when he was ready to go. He never gave me a look or anything like that. Early this morning he had a seizure. We had a talk with the vet last week that resulted in our decision that if he did have a seizure, we would let him go. Thats what happened today. I can honestly say that the best thing about cancer is that it gave me some time to "come to terms" with what was going to happen. I made sure that they gave him a sedative that would make him go to sleep so when I was with him he fell asleep and was still breathing. I wrapped him in a beautiful quilt, like a sleeping baby and left. They did the rest after I left. Rest in piece my sweet, lovely dog boy! I love you forever!
I am so sorry for your loss. I have spent the better part of this day reading all of these posts and following the progress of all of us struggling with the issue of nasal cancer. So far I have gotten to know the progress and fates of Ginger and Milo. Although as of today Dashdog seems to be hanging in. I hope i get as clear a message when it is ziggy's time. So far I am keeping him going on Prednesone
Sometimes it is hard to know what to do as Dash has had some major downturns due to infections yet I have given him time and he has bounced back. I doubt if this time he will bounce back but since he really does not seem to be in pain and still seems to enjoy life I have decided to wait a bit on the decision to put him down and instead take it day to day. I also feel since I was willing to try the neoplasene knowing that tumors near resurface usually rupture and fall off that I need to make certain that that is not what is happening. If he was in pain and not doing normal things for him I would have no problem putting him down right this moment but he has not indicated he is done or that there is alot of pain. Maybe his facial nerve on that side got damage some where along the way..who knows? Maybe he is just a very stoic dog?
It seems some of the dogs on prednisone have done quite well as have some that are on the budwig diet. There are several types of cancer and I am sure it also depends on which type you are dealing with.
You are right blood being swallowed can create bad breath but blood has a very metalic smell to it once you know the smell of blood you can pick it out over an infection as they do smell different. Having worked in a hospital for about 30yrs I know the smell of blood too well and it really makes me gag.
There are also alot of reasons they do not eat and swallowing alot of blood could be one but with every infection Dash has had not eating along with being lethargic and having bad breath seemed to go hand in hand and occurred before he actually had colored snot dripping out so in his case they have been my warning signs. Every dog is an individual and is totally different and will respond to infections, bleeding and drugs in their own way.In many ways it would be easier if that was not so but that is not the case.
I am not a big religious person yet I do believe in the power of prayers as I have seen cases where it would seem it had to be prayer that has helped and I know they did a study years ago that showed it did indeed help so don't rule that out either.
I think you gather what you feel may help and move forward day by day and until you get that sign or feel the pain is too much to bare you keep going and keep quality of life in the front. This I know is not for everyone as some will put their dog to sleep right away to spare them any discomfort and that is their decision no right no wrong as they know what they are able to deal with as cancer does not just invade the dog it invades the owner too. I myself believe in hospice care even for pets if that is what the owner can deal with and I hope more vets start seeing that as an option to end of life situations.
One last question is Ziggys cancer actually a mast cell tumor that happens to be on or near his nose? If so I do believe there is a new drug out there for mast cell tumors that is showing some promise. Dash's is an adenocarcinoma that started way down in his sinus .
Erica, what did you learn about the palliative radiation can Tufts do IMRT? I have been thinking about you and your buddy Scout all day. Jan
It was a long day. We're about 2.5 hours from Tufts, which is long for a day trip. Luckily, my aunt is about halfway and is always willing to take my little girl. It was a decent although indecisive visit. I didn't like the facility nearly as much as I liked Angell, but I guess that's not important. We didn't get a whole lot of information because we don't have a CT scan to work from, but we have been waiting to get the CT scan until we decide where to do treatment, since the radiation oncologists seem to want their own scan to work from. Anyway, it turns out that Tufts does indeed use their IMRT capabilities. The oncologist's suggestions, depending upon the results of the CT scan are as follows:
1. Rhinotomy. This surprised me, but he feels surgery to be the best option if the tumor continues to be small and on one side. I guess they remove a triangular section at the base of the nose and remove the mass that way. A study in Wisconsin showed impressive results following it. Surgery now also, obviously, removes the risks of doing radiation again. I'd love to hear more about Tillie's surgery--how did they do it, how was the recovery, long-term effects, etc. I will have to do more research and get second opinions before I'm okay with this option.
2. Definitive radiation with tradiational or IMRT. He feels pretty strongly that Scout could tolerate another round of definitive radiation (16 days). I'm confused because I thought the IMRT shortens the length of the treatment period, but he seemed to say it would be the same either way. I'm really not leaning toward this option. Not to the mention the price (I might as well go to New York and use the CyberKnife!) and the commitment of travel time, I don't think I can put Scout through it again and risk the long-term effects on his quality of life. It is key for me that he be able to hike and ski with me--that's his thing in life. If he can't do that because of blindless or other radiation effects, it's not worth it. I also learned how incredibly lucky I was to have our first round of radiation with the particular oncologist we had at Angell. Not only did Angell pick up a portion of our bill, but the protocol used by my oncologist shortened his definitive treatment period by 1/3, which in turn cut the cost by a third and the travel time by a third.
3. Palliative radiation with either traditional or IMRT. He really didn't seem to see the value in this--I kept pushing for it because of how I feel about definitive radiation.
My Angell oncologist really explained it well to me: what we do now is completely up to us. There's no standard protocol for treating dogs on round 2 of this. We should do what feels right to us and works financially, convenience-wise, and for Scout. I firmly believe she is right, so I think what we will do is do the CT scan at Tufts because they can offer IMRT. I will make it clear to them that we will be picky about his treatment and may ask them to research and use other's protocols. I will also seek second opinions to see what others are doing. Towards this, I would love to hear more in detail about Dash's and Tille's (and others) IMRT protocol, specifically the number of days, total Gys they received, etc., if you know them. Also, perhaps, the doctor and facility who did the treatment.
We did do a met check (clear), aspirate a few lumps near his lymph nodes (clear), and do a full exam, which showed no outward signs of anything. The oncologist did mention that he's seen some dogs present with Scout's symptoms (bleeding and discharge), only to have it turn out to be a nasty bacterial or fungal infection. He was surprised by his great condition--not a typical nasal cancer dog. We could be so lucky...
Anyway, that's where we are. I'd love any input that any of you have. Like I said, I think we're making up as we go along now.
Best wishes (and sooooo glad to hear Dash is continuing to fight!),
Erica
tillie and dash were both treated by dr rodney ayl in ventura, california, (805) 339-2290. it was five days but i do not know the strength (total Gys) they received. dr ayl is somewhat difficult to reach but we have been successful communicating with him via email with his assistant tracy: tracy@vmsg.com. perhaps your vet might have an easier time reaching dr ayl should s/he be interested in palliative radiation. which s/he apparently is not.
and regarding your vet's lack of enthusiasm for palliative raditation i can only point to
how well tille and dash responded to it. of course there is no way to know if they would still be around without the palliative radiation but i am glad that i did it for tillie.
Erica I do not envy you having such a big decision to make. I agree you should perhaps E-mail Dr. Ayl and tell them you know about Dash and Tillie and see what info they can help you with. Last time we saw him which was months ago I know he was quite happy with the palliative IMRT on both of them and he had mentioned he hoped more people would consider it verses the definitive as it was so much easier on everyone . I had a 30-45 minute drive each way due not just distance but traffic at that time of day and by day 5 I was so happy to be done as it was exhausting for me. I can not imagine having to make an even longer drive for 16 days or having to stay some where close by instead of at home. So make sure you do consider the total impact on your life too.
I think Dr Ayl is the type of person that really cares about what is best for a dog and would rather see owners do something that will cause less side effects to the dogs and yet still buy quality time.
Dash is having a rather down day and is being picky about what he is eating not a good sign so I am holding his tramadol until we go to bed so I can see if it just has him too doped up If that is not the case I may be saying good bye later this week..
I have to post because I know you guys understand...we had a bad week-end with Probert and I feel like the end is closing in on us so fast. It is hard to believe how fast they go downhill once they start.
Probert was diagnosed with a nasal tumor in June following some nosebleeding. Up until recently we;ve noticed increased noise when he breathes but with the Metacam the bleeding has stopped and things have been rather uneventful given the circumstances.
We had Probert to see his vet about a week and a bit ago for "green goop" - it came out of his mouth like drool but was the consistancy of glue and snot. When he sneezed it came out of his nose - my walls are covered, my floors are covered, we hide the blankets and pillows because they would be covered. She gave him an antibiotic and aspirated a little lump on the side of his face - it came back showing an increased level of a certain type of white blood cells but said not to worry too much but to keep an eye on him to see if it grows.
Early last week we noticed that his nose seems to REALLY be bothering him, he's rubbing it and hiding his left side (the affected side) when we walk near him. I am assuming it is starting to be painful for him.
I was away for quite a while Saturday evening. When I came home, the house looked like a murder scene - he had a nose bleed again, not a heavy one, just constant droplets throughout (I'm assuming) most of the evening. Yesterday and this morning the bleeding is continuing, although not severe.
His muzzle is also quite swollen, mainly on the left side and a lot if the fur is falling out around that area. I haven't touched it much to see how swollen or where exactly it is coming from, I just don't want to cause him any more discomfort.
I wish this was easier. I wish there was a clearcut answer to the question of "How much is too much to have him go through".
His appetite is great - he is eating everything that he's given and will often try to sneak Sammy's food when she's not looking. In fact, he's more demanding than ever when he's hungry and will bark incessantly until he's fed (he never used to do this) and will begin rummaging through the trash or the cupboards even after being fed...
His mood is wonderful - he is still a happy dog despite a lack of sleep, constant sneezing and not being able to breath normally. He has always been so tolerant of anything and even though I know he's uncomfortable, he tries to hide his tender spots rather then growl and snap at us.
I have such a hard time bringing myself to the thought of having him put down now, but I also have a hard time bringing myself to letting him go on much longer knowing he's uncomfortable...
I don't know if this helps much but after reading about Probert I would say you and I are close to the same spot.Difference being Dash's swelling opened up and is now a wound on his face and I do not know if his neoplasene caused it so it is a good thing or if it is just the cancer eating its way out so a very bad thing. I also do not have much blood or any green goo just drainage from the wound and now raw honey that I am packing the wound with.He rubs it on everything so all my furniture is covered in large fleece blankets I bought at Cost co last year when there was bleeding. I also have a big supply of large white bath towels I bought at the same time to clean him or other things up with as they bleach clean easily.
I know in my heart that I will be putting him down soon but he is still pretty active and interested in life and that makes it hard. In previous pets I have always known when it was time as they have told me yet Dash has not.
Now we are doing a dance with the tramadol as a full dose knocks him out so I have been doing 1/2 a dose and the first few days he is great then suddenly it seems to catch up to him and he acts very doped up, doesn't eat much yet stands looking at the food, his balance gets off a bit..just like some one high on narcotics which is what he is. So Last night I decided to hold off a few hours then fell asleep so it was 2 AM when I woke up so it was more then a few hours late and he was better. I don't want him to be in pain so he has to have some but figuring out how much and how often is difficult
Anyway I can feel the pain you are in over Probert probably because it is so similar to what I am dealing with right now. I hope it helps some to know you are not alone in it and that yes most here do understand as either they have gone through it,are going through it or will be in the future. If it helps consider this a cyber shoulder to cry on. Sending lots of Hugs and prayers your way for both you, your family and Probert. Jan
I cannot bear the thoiught of getting him in the car and driving to the vet, looking in his eyes and seeing the "Are we going to the park?" look, knowing full well where we're going and why.
Like you say "he is still pretty active and interested in life and that makes it hard"...it makes it very hard.
My friend (who had had numerous dogs over the last thirty years, many of them came to her already older and sick) sent me a message this morning and it said this:
Look at his eyes, very often we can see what we need to know in their eyes- an even better way is to take a picture of him and compare his eyes to a 'before' picture ..... but either way, it's time. The last thing you want is to leave it too long. You'll always feel you did it too soon anyway but you do not want to know you left it too long. He's suffering now and it will only get worse, and it may get worse quickly - when you are at work or not with him. And you are right once the end starts it goes really fast. They have an amazing ability to hide their pain but if Probert is hiding his affected side and rubbing at it, you can be sure it is causing him quite a lot of pain by now, as it would be. Don't worry about doing the wrong thing, it really is a wonderful thing we can do for our best friends, to help them along into their next life when it is time. Unfortunately it is time to let him go.
I find it comforting but so hard at the same time. We're also wrestling with what to do about Sammy, our other dog, once he goes.
Unfortunately the time is coming soon where Probert will have to be put down. Sammy is ten, and is quite an alpha dog. She came to live with us four years ago and at that time Probert had already been there for 3 years...life as she knows it has always been her and Probert - he helped her through some agression issues, she helped him through separation anxiety...it was a match made in heaven!
While being diagnosed, Probert had to stay at the Vet hospital for three days/two nights and Sammy was beside herself without her "brother". She was unlike I have ever seen her, very clingy and frantic going through the house trying to find him. It was difficult for us to leave her home when we had to go to work because she was so anxious (I've had her for 4 years and she was never anxious before).
Because we know Probert will only be with us for another short time, would it be wise to welcome another dog into our lives now so Sammy isn't so lonely when he's gone or should we wait and see how she adjusts before making too many changes in her life?
What your friend says is very true . I know with all my heart that the last true act of love we can give our dog is putting an end to their suffering when it is time. With previous pets I was able to do that but Dash still has this spark in his eye and Like you I think how can I take him in to vet to say good bye when he is sitting looking at me like " we going to the beach? To the lake? to the park? maybe some agility? Then when we pull up in front of the vets I will get the "vets? I don't want to go here " look". I even know that there will be that odd sense of relief knowing it is over as I felt that when my mom's cancer battle ended but boy this time this is so hard. ( I think because Dash and Jazz went through my moms cancer death with me and she loved my dogs so much that I am aslo dealing with alot of grief tied to that as it brings it all up in my mind so saying good bye to them is also loosing another connection to my mom)
I too am worried about my other old dog as Jazz is 13 I got Dash when she was 2 and they have loved each other and get upset when they are not together. The kennel staff at my vets always said they were like an old married couple, Jazz a nagging wife and Dash the hen pecked husband! That is one reason I added Dazzle to the mix and Jazz gets walked with him and taken out with him so she hopefully will not mis Dash as much.
If adding a new dog would cause too much stress you might want to wait, I was lucky as Dazzle was 8 months so still a puppy and a very goofy loveable guy much like a dog my parents had that my dogs loved so they both took to him and it did not stress them out. If Jazz had not accepted him then we would have had a great deal of stress so it was a risk but worked out I think jut because Dazzle is the way he is. I do know most people told me to wait then thought I was crazy when I told them I had gotten Dazzle.
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