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No one is directly saying they're choosing diversity over education, but over and over again (this thread is not the first one), posters ask, "what are the very best schools in Dallas?" We tell them, yet they come back saying, what are other options that offer more diversity- Richardson, Lakewood, etc? Yes, those offer more diversity, but they do not provide the BEST college prep curriculum.
My point is that in Dallas - maybe not in San Antonio or Phoenix or Orange County or Chicago- but in Dallas, TX, you do have to choose one over the other. The BEST schools are not economically or racially diverse. They just aren't. So yes, I understand that most parents would choose to have both in an ideal world or in another city, but that isn't an option here. Choose Woodrow or JJPearce- your kids can get a good education in a diverse environment, but it's not the BEST education. There is a trade-off.
Frogandtoad- if the reason for seeking a diverse environment isn't so your kids will learn to respect and appreciate all types of people and value human life (regardless of size of bank account or color of skin), then what is it?
I think you misunderstood my "check the diversity box" comment, or I wasn't clear enough when I wrote it. I meant that if you choose a Southlake or a Greenhill, you might as well just be checking the "Asian kids? Yup. Black kids? Yup." boxes, because when you're talking about the "diverse" kids in those schools, they are diverse in color only. I have two non-white friends who went to St Mark's. One is Asian (Chinese). His father is a world famous architect; they lived in a cool modern home in UP when he was growing up, worth about $2M today. He received a brand new BMW at 16, and had traveled most of the world staying in Four Seasons and similar resorts by 18. Very nicefuy, nice parents. He has an MBA from a Top 10 program now. The only thing "diverse" about his family was his skin and the fact that his mom had a mah-jong group.
Other friend was black. Parents live in a huge (like 10,000sf++) home in Old Preston Hollow. Dad is a bigshot attorney downtown. Have box seats to Cowboys & Mavs. Kid also got a brand new BMW at 16. They have a second home in Manhattan and are regulars at the Black Ballet & other AA fundraisers in NYC. Again, other than the color of his skin, he was no more diverse than Tom Hicks' (owns Texas Rangers, Dallas Stars, Liverpool rugby team, & formerly ran successful leverage buyout firm Hicks Muse Tate & Furst) son, who was also in the same St Mark's class. So, in that respect, I meant "check the box" if it makes you feel good, but those "diverse" kids aren't any different than your own- except they may have trust funds when your kids don't.
Last edited by TurtleCreek80; 01-02-2010 at 11:43 AM..
I see your point. I think that many people though, are on this site b/c they are moving to Dallas so have no idea whether it's possible to have both. Having lived places where both were possible together, I can see asking the question. Also one person's "best education" might not be another's. Like someone may have a child who excels in art or music and they want the "best" for that; or there's the IB program in several schools (which I personally absolutely love and feel it is "better" than regular HS programs); or whatever the criteria might be, but it might not be a one size fits all. I am still interested in learning more about Lakewood not b/c I am willing to give up education for diversity, but b/c of their IB program. I love the way it approaches education (totally differently from traditional education), and that the kids come out with an IB diploma, making them more likely to be accepted to international universities if they so choose, etc. Also the IB makes moving internationally easier--many countries are on this system, or a similar system so you can move your kids right in. Many reasons. But I also "get" that for traditional education HP/UP seems to come out at the top, and I don't dismiss that at all. Just like people in one private absolutely to the core believe their child is in the "best" school, yet another person at a totally different sort of school (Montessori, Waldorf, whatever) feels like they are at the "best school."
Why people want diversity really varies. For some, in transracial families, it can be as simple as having other kids who look like their kids. It's tough to be the only black, or only mixed race child in a school. In this case, your example of the well-educated Indian man would indeed "count" as diversity. That's one example. And people each have their own reason. I certainly don't think it's to "check off a box", nor do I think everyone wants it for the same reason.
I guess what I'm really just saying is "to each his own." We all pursue what we value, but it might not be what another person values. We don't all see "best" education the same way--not everyone feels a high-pressure college prep program is the "best", some value economic diversity, some racial diversity, some neither, etc.
I see your point, too, especially about for kids to want to be around others who look like them, especially at a young age.
Yes, I agree that for a special student, would always recommend Booker T (DISD Arts Magnet) for a school for a student with visual or performing arts talents over any public school. It is the best school for their needs. Likewise a child with a LD would get a rec for Winston or Shelton schools, as thy are the "best" there.
Interested to see how IB goes at Lakewood. It is an excitig opportunity and honor for the school to be selected.
I had college friends from Woodrow and Hillcresr who were at the top of their classes. Took almost all AP/ Honors classes, but usually even the top kids have a weak subject or schedule conflict that routes them into 1 regular class a year. I was shocked to hear tales of high school students who COULD NOT READ, WRITE, or DO SIMPLE MATH. Those kids would distract the entire class, the teacher would lose control of the room, and the smart kids would basically have to teach the subject to themselves. Everyone loses.
So hopefully the IB school within a school concept will eliminate experiences like that in WW. I hope so!
Somewhat related to TurtleCreek's point -- several weeks ago my girls and I were having a discussion about the relative diversity of St. Monica vs. Ursuline. My youngest declared, "St. Monica has NO diversity." I was puzzled, because her circle of closest friends, which included about a dozen girls, included three Hispanic girls, one Asian girl, three African American girls, and five Anglo girls. I quickly named a dozen of her classmates, both male and female, from a variety of non-Anglo racial and ethnic backgrounds. She responded, "Yeah, I guess there is diversity, but when you're all friends you just don't notice." That happened well before Turtlecreek's post, but I walked away from that discussion encouraged for the future of Dallas and our country.
Diversity is obviously a complex, subjective topic...whether in schools or colleges or offices
In some places like SiliconValley or Manhattan, many of wealthiest (and smartest) are self-made guys, often Jewish or random white guys (often not from CA or NYC) or US-born IndianAmericans or Indians from India (who came to US for grad school at Stanford/Berkeley)...it is what it is...much like NBA/NFL has very few Jews or Indians...
Lots of cultural variation at prep school or college level....will always have middle-income kids who attend prep school; move on to, for ex., Harvard and feel "poor" vs the trust-fund kids, some of whom are not the smartest but are legacies of parents whose names are on campus bldgs....consider Steve Ballmer, Microsoft's billionaire CEO....father a middle-income, Jewish Ford engineer; attended DetroitCountryDay; and met Bill Gates, a smart WASP trust fund brat at Harvard; Steve actually beat Bill in some math contests at Harvard...and the rest is history
In college, will find a very different distribution of kids at places like Stanford or Wharton; colleges obviously have affirmative action quotas and can easily pass through academically weak athletes or aff action kids through various easy lib arts majors...but Computer Science at Stanford or Finance at Wharton tends to scare away most kids who aren't able to compete with smartest quant kids on planet, many of whom are brown and from middle-income, mediocre suburban public HS, not famed private schools in Manhattan
And even at places like GoldmanSachs or any major IB will need to deal with many moron kids of prominent wealthy families whose fathers can get them a starting job at a Goldman no matter how inept the kid; also will see affirmative action kids who may have attended elite colleges but are clearly intellectually weak...so financial firms will put the legacies or aff action kids in parts of firm where they won't cause too much damage or embarrassment in front of clients
I appreciate "bubbles" like HP or StMarks or Stanford Engineering or Goldman or Google, etc because they reflect the "diverse" set of characters, inequities and Darwinian selection any ambitious kid will encounter throughout life in any competitive, lucrative, innovative industry in world...life isn't fair, and never will be, but at no time in history have so many smart, self-made (and relatively young) people been among US' wealthiest people...stuff we routinely see today in any region with a dynamic, entrepreneurial, IQ-based economy, but rarely saw back in '80s or prior
I have really enjoyed the past couple of hours, reading all of your posts. I had posted a question to "Frankie" who was a fairly active participant on a Westlake Academy thread awhile back, and a current WA student, about the current Senior Class. She had previously told me that a good number of the current Senior Class (the first graduating class for WA) have already received acceptances from their colleges of choice, and my question to her, and any WA, Southlake, HPISD, PISD seniors and families would be the same. What colleges are these kids applying and more importantly getting early acceptances to? Thank you.
I have a list here of 225 universities 2008 Richardson ISD kids were accepted (Pearce High, Richardson High, Lake Highlands High, Berkner High). It includes Harvard, Brown, Yale, Princeton, John Hopkins, Vassar, Cornell, Columbia, Duke, Emory, Carnegie Mellon, MIT, Tulane, all 4 military academys, Clemson, Stanford, etc. etc. I think that's the same for most of the districts.
I have really enjoyed the past couple of hours, reading all of your posts. I had posted a question to "Frankie" who was a fairly active participant on a Westlake Academy thread awhile back, and a current WA student, about the current Senior Class. She had previously told me that a good number of the current Senior Class (the first graduating class for WA) have already received acceptances from their colleges of choice, and my question to her, and any WA, Southlake, HPISD, PISD seniors and families would be the same. What colleges are these kids applying and more importantly getting early acceptances to? Thank you.
Early decision (binding) is a good tool for a pretty good (not exceptional) student with strong test scores and extracurriculars to get pushed into the "yes" pile. Because ED is binding regardless of financial aid, these are the full tuition admits that universities love to bank on.
The most competitive students (ie, Top 10-20 ranking students) will generally not apply ED and will try their luck in the general admissions cycle. That way, they can weight options & offers, like admissions to Princeton vs 1/2 tuition scholarship to Duke and 100% tuition to UT-Plan II Honors.
As for Highland Park ED- Vanderbilt, UNC, UVA, and Wake Forest tend to fare well.
For the total college admissions picture, each year in a class of 350-400 graduates:
50 or so attend UT-Austin. About 10-15 enroll in Plan II or Business Honors
20 or so attend each of A&M, Baylor, SMU
10-20 attend TCU, Oklahoma, Georgia, & Arkansas
For the elite universities and liberal arts schools,
5-10 attend Wake Forest
10-15 attend Vanderbilt
4-5 attend Ivies (Princeton, Yale, Brown, Harvard, & Penn being most common)
2-3 to Duke
3-5 to Service Academies (West Point, Naval Academy, Air Force)
1-2 to Rice
1-2 to NYU
1-2 to Juliard, RISD, or other arts schools
2-3 to top liberal arts schools (Swarthmore, Amherst, etc)
5-10 to top Cali schools (Stanford, USC, UCLA, Berkley, Pepperdine)
1-2 to a Cal-Tech or Carnegie Mellon
2-3 to University of Virginia
2-3 to University of North Carolina
1-2 to Northwestern
Turtlecreek, I was right with you until the end here...now I have to disagree! (Respectfully).
Diversity is not just about skin color. You are absolutely right. Its about being around different types of people. That means not every single family is a lawyer or doctor or Ibanker in Dallas, who went to SMU and has never been outside of the "bubble".
1) I get the very distinct opinion that you have not spent much time in Southlake. We have now visited both Southlake and Park Cities on several occasions, and from our limited vantage point there is much more diversity in Southlake. There are definitely rich people there. But there are also a LOT of families in the older parts of Southlake (which still constitue the bulk of the population), Grapevine, Keller, etc. that are in Carroll ISD. Diversity isnt just race to us. Its economic, its religous, its lifestyle. I would say that there is still a fair amount of "redneck" types in the Southlake area without much money, but on farms, etc. Its always amusing to me how people want to use the term "diversity" to fit certain biases. You always here people making fun of the "redneck" types, but can you imagine if they made fun of Mexicans or Blacks in that way? Park Cities strike us as white and very rich...period.
2) I said early in my post that we will put education above diversity for our boys. But it would be nice to seek some amount of economic diversity, if racial diversity is elusive in the better public schools or private schools. Our kids went to preschool/kindergarten at (relative) expensive private schools where we are (Catholic), but there was/is a fair amount of diversity because some families will sacrifice all to put their kids through a certain school - either for academic and/or religous reasons. Your parents did this for you according to your earlier post. I loved reading that story. Its what we are/will be doing for our boys. My only concern is that I think that your story seems to be very unusual for the Park Cities (Dallasites have posted to confirm this is their opinion too). My hope is that in some of the better private schools, there are enough scholarships, and racial diversity in the population to create a *somewhat* more diverse school experience.
We are still learning, thinking, evaluating, etc. We dont have all the answers for sure. But I do think that we are pretty convinced it will be VERY difficult to keep our boys *grounded* in HPISD. Their Grandfather used an outhouse at home until he went to college, when he got his first bathroom. I dont want them to ever forget that and/or assume any sense of entitlement through daily associations, etc. Yes there will be some of that anywhere, and I know that it is our job to reinforce through parenting at home...just worried it would be an uphill battle in HPISD.
Last, I am not that impressed with the matriculation data you provided. Not that there isnt much to be proud of there -- most of them are attending better colleges than I did! But for all the $$ to live in that district and all the hubub, I would have expected less UT/A&M and more elite colleges (although my husband says that his Firm actively recruits from the Plan II Honors Program and speaks very highly of those students)...
Lynnsl,
I'm just curious where you're looking with the diversity you want, which is till commutable to downtown? Are you looking right downtown itself? Lakewood (which I love and is still very much an option for us!)? Are there other places which provide this diversity?
Lakewood is a possibility, but in the same way as Southlake is awfully far West, it seems awfully far East. Husband commute to Downtown is just one concern, he would probably say the least important. We are looking at some of the Disney street type areas, which is Northwest Dallas. But like you, still figuring it all out. My guess is that we are going to have to decide what we are most willing to compromise, because we are not going to have it all. We spent time in the Park Cities area this weekend and then went to the Cotton Bowl today. We are excited to come to Dallas. And looking for where we will live is stressful, but fun!
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