HPISD vs. North Dallas Private Schools (Plano, Coppell: neighborhood, school district, college)

[Big G]

I agree with lynnsl's perception that you cannot "buy" your way into St. Mark's.

My personal take on the private schools in DFW is that there are only a few (St. Mark's, Hockaday, Greenhill, maybe one or two others) that are notably better than the best public school systems. Thing is, those schools are extremely difficult to gain acceptance to, especially entering at an "odd" grade level.


From where I'm sitting, your problem is that, although you can be reasonably certain of gaining admission to *a* private school, you cannot be certain of gaining admission to private schools that would be superior to HPISD. In fact, I would say your odds of doing so are rather long.

In particular, ESD is a school that I would *not* consider any better than, say, Southlake or Plano, and probably worse than the HP system.

--


Grainraiser's comments about HPISD should not be ignored. However, they are particularly applicable to the black population of Highland Park. As in just about every city in Texas, there are some Hispanics in HP. So that may not be as big an issue for you.

[lynnsl]

Diversity is great, but in our book, not at the expense of the best education possible for our boys. No offense meant by the following comment to anyone...but we often find that WASPs seem more focused on how important racial diversity is in the school environment. Our parents speak English as a second language and are proud of their Mexican heritage, but would roll over in graves if they knew that we were actively seeking out a school with more Hispanics at the expense of the best schooling their grandchildren could get. There would probably even be some type of stand-up routine joke to be made about that. Each generation works harder to be able to provide a better life for their family where we come from. Doesnt mean that we would seek a homogenous student body in the schools, but its not our first point of concern. We want the very best education (academics) with a sense of community, and a reasonable number of economically diverse kids so that ours wouldnt feel poor. So I guess the economic diversity is important to us. Again, we dont come from money, we earned it, and want our boys to understand the value of that and what it means to be "normal"...something that we worry about based on what we hear and read about North Dallas in general, but especially HPISD.

Originally Posted by Big G

I agree with lynnsl's perception that you cannot "buy" your way into St. Mark's.

My personal take on the private schools in DFW is that there are only a few (St. Mark's, Hockaday, Greenhill, maybe one or two others) that are notably better than the best public school systems. Thing is, those schools are extremely difficult to gain acceptance to, especially entering at an "odd" grade level.


From where I'm sitting, your problem is that, although you can be reasonably certain of gaining admission to *a* private school, you cannot be certain of gaining admission to private schools that would be superior to HPISD. In fact, I would say your odds of doing so are rather long.

In particular, ESD is a school that I would *not* consider any better than, say, Southlake or Plano, and probably worse than the HP system.

--


Grainraiser's comments about HPISD should not be ignored. However, they are particularly applicable to the black population of Highland Park. As in just about every city in Texas, there are some Hispanics in HP. So that may not be as big an issue for you.

[hsw]

Diversity or lack of diversity of HP (or any elite private school) means nothing; it's neither a virtue nor a vice....would argue upwardly mobile kids would be better served growing up around demographics/personalities/values/issues/weaknesses of families who are highest achievers in competitive industries, not mediocre achievers or the downwardly mobile or the chronic welfare crowd

Senior executive suites at Exxon or GoldmanSachs or Apple or Google don't reflect socially mandated "diversity", nor do the NFL/NBA; only elite colleges/pvt schools seem obsessed with artificially achieving socially engineered diversity....and the most elite areas of SF's PacificHts and Manhattan's UES are no more diverse than HP...or any other highly affluent suburb or urban area anywhere in US

StMarks has always stood out for its ability to have, IIRC, ~15% of its grads enter top 5 colleges (I define top 5 as Stanford, Harvard, Wharton, Princeton and Yale), a rate comparable to best pvt schools anywhere (IIRC, best pvt schools in Manhattan send ~20% of grads to top 5 colleges)

Compare vs HP's rate of sending kids to top 5 colleges

And risk-adjust rates of admission for advantages of top colleges desperately seeking diversity, esp admits who don't need financial aid (consider the depleted endowments post-'08 meltdown)

May be smarter arbitrage to use HP public; save cash; and allocate cash later as needed in form of tax-deductible donations to kids' colleges of choice to enhance odds of admission...

[lynnsl]

Originally Posted by hsw

Diversity or lack of diversity of HP (or any elite private school) means nothing; it's neither a virtue nor a vice....would argue upwardly mobile kids would be better served growing up around demographics/personalities/values/issues/weaknesses of families who are highest achievers in competitive industries, not mediocre achievers or the downwardly mobile or the chronic welfare crowd

Senior executive suites at Exxon or GoldmanSachs or Apple or Google don't reflect socially mandated "diversity", nor do the NFL/NBA; only elite colleges/pvt schools seem obsessed with artificially achieving socially engineered diversity....and the most elite areas of SF's PacificHts and Manhattan's UES are no more diverse than HP...or any other highly affluent suburb or urban area anywhere in US

StMarks has always stood out for its ability to have, IIRC, ~15% of its grads enter top 5 colleges (I define top 5 as Stanford, Harvard, Wharton, Princeton and Yale), a rate comparable to best pvt schools anywhere (IIRC, best pvt schools in Manhattan send ~20% of grads to top 5 colleges)

Compare vs HP's rate of sending kids to top 5 colleges

And risk-adjust rates of admission for advantages of top colleges desperately seeking diversity, esp admits who don't need financial aid (consider the depleted endowments post-'08 meltdown)

May be smarter arbitrage to use HP public; save cash; and allocate cash later as needed in form of tax-deductible donations to kids' colleges of choice to enhance odds of admission...

Couldnt agree more with your diversity comments. Somewhat agree with your comments on academics. They assume that the end-goal/definition of success is the type of college kids attend. For sure it is a fair measure and a widely accepted one. We would love our kids to go to a top 5 college...but not sure that is the only goal for us. Want them to fall in love with learning, enjoy their school experience, rich academic exposure to different things, become gentlemen. Those things shouldnt be mutually exclusive with your defined measure, but I guess its also about the "journey" to us, not just the destination... if that makes sense.

[Big G]

Truth be told, I'm a non-fan of HP and the HP schools, but for lynnsl's particular position, buying a house in HP might be the way to go. When factoring in the cost of the house, don't neglect that the home value doesn't go away - it's not a sunk cost in the way private school tuition would be.

In effect, your "tuition" bill for HPISD would be some combination of
1) the year-upon-year cost of financing a more expensive house, plus
2) the lost utility from the fact that that same amount of money could have been used to buy a nicer home in DISD territory, plus
3) Some unknown gain or loss that you'll realize upon selling your HP home.

One part is readily quantified, the others not.

--


As I understand her original post, she can either pay the premium to live in HP or pay private school tuition, but not both. She wants to do whatever will give her kids the best possible education.

Here's the rub - if lynnsl decides to buy the cheaper house and go the private school route, that will only pan out if admission to St. Mark's or the like is forthcoming. If her kids miss out on that brass ring, she now is stuck spending private school $$$, with no possibility of recouping the expense (as she would have with an HP real estate purchase), yet her kids are getting an education below that of HPISD.

[TurtleCreek80]

ESD is the "party" school of the elite privates in Dallas. Academically, it is signifcantly below HPISD.

About the same number of HP grads attend Ivy/ Top 10 Liberal Arts schools as St Mark's or Greenhill; the graduating class size is just 3-4x bigger. But those who compete at the top levels are equal in both public and private.

St Mark's and Hockaday both take a significant number at 5th grade explicitly due to their relationship with Lamplighter. I have never, ever heard of Lamplighter being slack in academic preparation until this thread- and I have a friend whose mother has taught there for 20+ years, in addition to many friends who are graduates.

As far as economic diversity, that is something you see more in the Catholic schools than HPISD/ St Marks/ Greenhill/ ESD.

I would recommend you rent in HP for a year (so you have the address to enroll in Kindergarten if need be), while you peruse both HP and private school options.

[lynnsl]

Originally Posted by Big G

Truth be told, I'm a non-fan of HP and the HP schools, but for lynnsl's particular position, buying a house in HP might be the way to go. When factoring in the cost of the house, don't neglect that the home value doesn't go away - it's not a sunk cost in the way private school tuition would be.

In effect, your "tuition" bill for HPISD would be some combination of
1) the year-upon-year cost of financing a more expensive house, plus
2) the lost utility from the fact that that same amount of money could have been used to buy a nicer home in DISD territory, plus
3) Some unknown gain or loss that you'll realize upon selling your HP home.

One part is readily quantified, the others not.

--


As I understand her original post, she can either pay the premium to live in HP or pay private school tuition, but not both. She wants to do whatever will give her kids the best possible education.

Here's the rub - if lynnsl decides to buy the cheaper house and go the private school route, that will only pan out if admission to St. Mark's or the like is forthcoming. If her kids miss out on that brass ring, she now is stuck spending private school $$$, with no possibility of recouping the expense (as she would have with an HP real estate purchase), yet her kids are getting an education below that of HPISD.

Well put. It is for this reason that we are going to make applications to these schools prior to purchasing a house. Based on other research and this thread, we are thinking apply to St. Marks, Lamplighter, and St. Monica for 1st grade for our older boy next year. Make a decision about HPISD based on what comes back from those. Thanks again for all the input. The sweating that we do for our kids and schools!

[SMS_Parent]

Who would have guessed that this would become such a hot thread? School choice is all about finding the right fit for your student and allocating family resources wisely. You are wise to pursue a range of options.
Everyone is certainly entitled to his own opinion of Dallas parochial schools, but you need to bear in mind that Loneranger -- the only poster who commented negatively on the academic quality of Dallas parochial schools -- neither attended Dallas parochial schools himself nor has any children enrolled in any school parochial or otherwise. His knowledge of the academic environments of area Catholic parochial schools and of Good Shepherd Episcopal is limited to his perception of the sufficiency of his classmates’ elementary education. Assuming that Loneranger is now a college freshman, his classmates graduated from their elementary schools at least five years ago – and his classmates who attended Lamplighter would have graduated from Lamplighter at least nine years ago since Lamplighter only goes to fourth grade. That is a long time in the life a school that you are considering for a preschooler today. (And as a side note, I am surprised that he is so familiar with where his classmates went to elementary school. My high school girls almost never know their friends’ academic pedigrees -- they tell me that elementary school is a subject that people just don’t care about at Ursuline. Maybe boys are different . . .)
The many Jesuit alumni whose children currently attend St. Monica, St. Rita and CKS would assess these schools quite differently. But then, when you are spending $200,000 extra out of your own pocket the subject becomes more than just a matter of theoretical concern. Our kids have the academic stats to attend any of these schools. For us, after careful consideration we decided that our funds would be better used on their college and graduate educations – because if you look at the college admission stats, there is very little difference between where Ursuline/Hockaday and Cistercian/St. Mark’s kids go to school. This is a decision that every family must make for itself -- and of course the reality is that many of the families who go to St. Mark's/Hockaday live in a world where they don't have to choose between a house in HP, a St. Mark's/Hockaday education/ and an elite college education -- they can have it all. That is not the world our family inhabits.
Zoed’s experience with Lamplighter is not the first time I have heard of kids from Lamplighter with academic deficits. To be fair, however, Lamplighter offers a rather unique pedagogical approach that is probably more successful for some students than others – for reasons unrelated to academic ability -- and like all schools, it also admits students with a range of abilities. It is a truly cool school. Who wouldn’t want to go to school that has a barn on campus and that sells eggs to parents in carpool line? It is an easy school to fall in love with.
I have to admit that I smiled at the comment that Cistercian’s success is due to disgruntled Catholic parents pulling their bright sons from subpar parochial schools. Cistercian is over 40% non-Catholic – the families who make up that 40% definitely aren’t refugees from Catholic elementary schools. There is one reason you pull your child from a school you love in fifth grade to send him to Cistercian. At Cistercian there are forty two slots in fifth grade. There are no more than five open slots in ninth grade – and in all the other grades there are usually two or fewer opening per grade. If you want Cistercian, fifth grade is the year to go – no matter how happy or unhappy you are with your son’s current school. Most Catholic parents speak fondly of their son’s years at their Catholic elementary schools and many have female siblings or younger boys still in those same schools. Trust me – no parent at Cistercian would leave his or her children in an unacceptable academic situation.
Numbers speak better than anecdotes. There were five openings this year in Cistercian’s freshman class. St. Monica boys got two of those five slots. Of the forty two boys who entered fifth grade at Cistercian this year, five were St. Monica boys. In my son’s Cistercian class just a few years ago, the numbers were the same – five St. Monica boys accepted out of a class of forty two.
We are also personally familiar with the composition of the AP and Honors classes for two of the four grades currently enrolled at Ursuline since our daughters both carry full loads of Honors/AP. It is simply untrue that graduates of parochial school are less likely to be placed in those classes. English is perhaps the most selective of the AP subjects at Ursuline. Seven of the roughly thirty girls selected for AP English are St. Monica grads -- and they aren't the only parochial school girls in the class. The percentages are similar in AP Biology and AP U.S. History. In the Ursuline freshman class this year roughly twenty girls placed into Sophomore Honors math. St. Monica girls were seven of those twenty girls.
The high school success of St. Monica’s Ursuline students is further borne out by the results of this year’s National Merit results. Ursuline’s senior class had twenty five students who were named National Merit Semifinalists or Commended Students. Eight of them are St. Monica grads.
We feel very good about the choice we made but know that most families are equally happy with their choices even if those choices are different than the choices we would make. We know that you can find a school you will feel good about as well.

[lynnsl]

Please keep the debate and discussion coming

Found this on Lamplighter website...not sure what the statistics look like from other schools, but its kind of hard to argue with these "placement" statistics...was especially surprised at the high count into Cistercian...

The Lamplighter School: Beyond Lamplighter

[tgannaway89]

Highland Park is probably the "whitest" school district in Texas.

It is a very wealthy district and is constantly ranked a top performer academically. For being a public school district you'll find a lot of similarities to expensive private schools.