HPISD vs. North Dallas Private Schools (San Antonio, Austin: spring break, sales, apartment)

[theloneranger]

Originally Posted by lynnsl

In any case, this thread has given us a lot to think about. We tend to start with an end goal in mind and work backward. What I think that we do know: we would like our boys to be at St. Marks, Cistercian, or Jesuit for High School. Now, what path to get there...that is the thing that we need to figure out. Lamplighter or Parochial seems to be where we are landing. While we could comfortably afford a house in the Park Cities, with money leftover for the camps, etc., I do not consider us to be HPISD rich. There is something to be said for the comments about kids feeling poor in their $1MM+ house in that district. We just arent interested in such a warped sense of reality. Stereotyping a bit and dont mean to be insulting, but SOME amount of diversity economically is important to us.

Honestly, Lamplighter products tend to go more toward St. Mark's/Hockaday/Greenhill/Cistercian/ESD than towards Jesuit/Ursuline, largely because those schools are admitting in 5th grade, so the large number will end up there. I think those that don't get into Cistercian and Greenhill and SM/Hockaday end up either at ESD or schools like St. Alcuin, Parish, or Good Shepherd or else at parochial schools as backups. Those schools (other than Parish and ESD) have a pretty broad selection of schools where their kids go after 8th grade. I can't actually think of a single guy I graduated with at Jesuit (of 270) who I know attended Lamplighter. I don't think parochial school will give you an admission advantage into Cistercian, but it will be substantially cheaper. However, you need to make sure your kids are in Cistercian's academic profile if you've chosen CPS as your goal, otherwise you're going to be looking at Jesuit or else ESD/Parish.

I know about 3 or 4 guys from my year who graduated from Lamplighter (none went to Jesuit). 2 are at UT, one at Columbia, and I think one at Harvard.

Originally Posted by SMS_Parent

All of Big G's points are valid. Big G is right on that the dunces at Ursuline and Jesuit are very likely to have been educated at parochial schools. Jesuit and Ursuline give admission preference to graduates of Catholic schools, so you are going to find graduates of Catholic schools at both the top and the bottom of the class. (In fact, the preference given to Catholic school grads may have been the deciding factor that got the dunces into Jesuit or Ursuline -- and just to be clear, the "dunces" we are talking about are probably scoring in the 1800s on their SATs vs.the kids at the top of the class who are at 2100+.

This is very true. However, the 'dunces' are getting more like 1500 than 1800--average Jesuit guys are getting around 1800 (national average is around 1500 of 2400).

Originally Posted by SMS_Parent

If you are choosing Lamplighter, you have a really good shot at Parish and ESD, which are good schools and produce high quality graduates, but are not a hard admit in high school. Big G is right that they are probably roughly equivalent to the good suburban public schools, but there are still environmental factors that might lead you to choose ESD/Parish over the best of the suburban publics. If you are looking for the private school environment -- low class size, motivated families, interesting course offerings, religious environment, less social pressure to conform to a certain standard of wealth, well maintained facilities, freedom from political interference with school and the ability to chose where to live without regard to school boundaries -- I wouldn't let the specter of ESD/Parish deter you from choosing Lamplighter.

ESD isn't so easy to get into in high school--especially if you can't make a big donation. They have a lot of those factors you listed except for "less social pressure to conform to a certain standard of wealth." ESD is probably the WORST school in Dallas, including Highland Park, in that regard. It's crazy--there is so much "keeping up with the Joneses" at ESD. They also don't have the greatest academic reputations, though they aren't terrible and are better than WT White or Hillcrest or First Baptist.

Originally Posted by FarNorthDallas

My friends who have been through ESD...well, had they to do it over again, they would not do ESD. They all could compete with the wealth - and it's a Who's Who of the Dallas super wealthy and well-known - but, they said as the focus turned to athletics, the academics has started to suffer.

Originally Posted by TurtleCreek80

ESD is the "party" school of the elite privates in Dallas. Academically, it is signifcantly below HPISD.

These. The going joke in other schools is that ESD stands for "Education in Sex and Drugs."

Originally Posted by SMS_Parent

Everyone is certainly entitled to his own opinion of Dallas parochial schools, but you need to bear in mind that Loneranger -- the only poster who commented negatively on the academic quality of Dallas parochial schools -- neither attended Dallas parochial schools himself nor has any children enrolled in any school parochial or otherwise. His knowledge of the academic environments of area Catholic parochial schools and of Good Shepherd Episcopal is limited to his perception of the sufficiency of his classmates’ elementary education. Assuming that Loneranger is now a college freshman, his classmates graduated from their elementary schools at least five years ago – and his classmates who attended Lamplighter would have graduated from Lamplighter at least nine years ago since Lamplighter only goes to fourth grade.

My brothers go to St. Rita, and have friends at St. Monica and Christ the King and Good Shepherd and Prince of Peace and others. I get to hear all the latest gossip from him and from my mother when I come home. He has a lot of busy work, but the coursework they're teaching is behind what I learned at an equivalent grade level in public school.

I don't believe any of the relevant schools have changed dramatically in the past 4 years.

It may have been particularly my year, but the North Dallas private schools in particular had relatively mediocre grads in my class and the classes above me and below me at Jesuit. There were a few exceptions, but the vast majority of St. Rita/St. Monica/St. Paul's/CKS kids were in regular level classes and didn't do outstanding in those. Perhaps because of the higher admissions standards for non-parochial school grads, the kids from public/non-Catholic schools were a much larger proportion in honors and AP classes and on the honor roll than Catholic school grads. For the record, our valedictiorian went to St. Mark in Plano, our salutatorian to Fort Worth Country Day, and the rest of the top ten I can think of three kids from Good Shepherd, a couple kids from DISD magnet schools, one from Prince of Peace, and a couple from St. John's Episcopal in East Dallas.

And it wasn't hard to know where people went to grade school--people wore grade school shirts, you recognized faces from sports in grade school, actually made casual conversation that might include where they went to grade school, and saw each other in church.

[SMS_Parent]

Definitely several points of agreement with Loneranger.

Honestly, Lamplighter products tend to go more toward St. Mark's/Hockaday/Greenhill/Cistercian/ESD than towards Jesuit/Ursuline, largely because those schools are admitting in 5th grade, so the large number will end up there.

Definitely true -- as the Lamplighter website itself shows, most Lamplighter kids end up at a school where they will end up staying from 5th - 12th grade. The only exception would be Good Shepherd which sends a large portion of its graduating class to Jesuit and Ursuline. If you go the Lamplighter route and Cistercian doesn't work out, then if Jesuit is still the goal, Good Shepherd would be the next logical step from Lamplighter -- your kids would likely end up with many Lamplighter friends at Good Shepherd rather than having to start from scratch in 5th grade at a Catholic school -- which can be tough at a school where the kids have largely been together since Kindergarten.

the vast majority of St. Rita/St. Monica/St. Paul's/CKS kids were in regular level classes

Definitely true at Ursuline. But remember St. Rita and St. Monica each send 25 - 35 girls to Ursuline per year -- and also send roughly that number of boys to Jesuit. Add in CKS and those three schools can make up close to half the entering class at Ursuline. (I don't have a really good handle on where St. Paul kids go -- but have heard that they split much more evenly between Jesuit/Ursuline and Bishop Lynch.) Honors classes at Ursuline are limited to the top 10 - 20% of the class, depending upon subject. So it isn't all that surprising that most girls from any school that sends large numbers of girls to Ursuline are in regular level classes. Our experience has simply been that St. Monica girls (at least in in my girls' grade levels) have earned well over their proportionate share of slots in the honors classes -- getting 6- 7 of the 20 - 40 spots in Honors/AP classes rather than the expected 2 -3.

It may have been particularly my year, but the North Dallas private schools in particular had relatively mediocre grads in my class and the classes above me and below me at Jesuit.

The thing that you have to remember about Jesuit is that many of the most capable boys from the North Dallas Catholic schools went to Cistercian in 5th grade -- leaving the field wide open for boys for whom Cistercian isn't a desirable geographic choice or for whom Cistercian didn't make sense for other reasons. Thus for instance -- among the National Merit Semifinalist/Recognized girls from St. Monica all are at Ursuline -- but the boys are split between Jesuit and Cistercian. Another thing that anyone considering Jesuit needs to know is that they often will take boys who are lower down the list academically than other, more facially academically qualified boys due to alumni connections or a desire to diversify their class.

He has a lot of busy work, but the coursework they're teaching is behind what I learned at an equivalent grade level in public school.

Maybe he should come to St. Monica (Have to get in my little St. Rita dig there -- they are a big rival.)

[SMS_Parent]

I think I would have done better in a more traditional and structured classroom, something my parents (bless their hearts) wanted to avoid.

Isn't it tough being a parent! Lamplighter would have been disastrous for one of my two girls for this very reason. (Our other daughter would have loved it and done very well.)

That is what makes school choice so hard, you often have to decide what the right learning environment is before you really know who your kids are as students -- and even as they get older if there is a problem it isn't necessarily easy to tell whether the issue is the school or the kid. (The school will rarely tell you that the problem is that their school isn't a good fit for your child's learning style.) Add to that the desire to keep things simple by sending your kids to the same school and you have a recipe for a bad fit between student and school.

[lynnsl]

Starting to sound like Lamplighter, although a great school, is kind of putting all the eggs in the Cistercian/St. Marks basket (for boys). If those dont work for 5th grade (or 1st I guess for St. Marks), then you are faced with a "gap" that has to be filled between Lamplighter and Jesuit.... not ideal I suppose. Might be better to just have them somewhere K-8, in case Cistercian and St. Marks cant happen... which kind of brings me back to the parochial options or HPISD... interesting...

[TXNGL]

Originally Posted by SMS_Parent

Isn't it tough being a parent! Lamplighter would have been disastrous for one of my two girls for this very reason. (Our other daughter would have loved it and done very well.)

That is what makes school choice so hard, you often have to decide what the right learning environment is before you really know who your kids are as students -- and even as they get older if there is a problem it isn't necessarily easy to tell whether the issue is the school or the kid. (The school will rarely tell you that the problem is that their school isn't a good fit for your child's learning style.) Add to that the desire to keep things simple by sending your kids to the same school and you have a recipe for a bad fit between student and school.

Absolutely! We've really lucked out with my daughter. She excelled in a traditional public school classroom for elementary, but I really think she would have been fine at a place like Lamplighter, as well. She's just more, I don't know, pliable (LOL) than I was as a kid. She's in a magnet school for middle school now, and that was a tough start. Middle school, well it goes without saying, is a whole different world. Things are fine now and she's doing great. Whew!

[frogandtoad]

great thread, thanks to all who responded! I am coming out of this thread leaning a different direction than the OP. I'm feeling like a great public might be the way to go (our kids are in private in another state at the moment). Goes to show how people are looking for different things!

[theloneranger]

Originally Posted by lynnsl

Starting to sound like Lamplighter, although a great school, is kind of putting all the eggs in the Cistercian/St. Marks basket (for boys). If those dont work for 5th grade (or 1st I guess for St. Marks), then you are faced with a "gap" that has to be filled between Lamplighter and Jesuit.... not ideal I suppose. Might be better to just have them somewhere K-8, in case Cistercian and St. Marks cant happen... which kind of brings me back to the parochial options or HPISD... interesting...

Good Shepherd for PK-8 is also a very strong option. In my year 2 of Jesuit National Merit Finalists were Good Shepherd products, and at least one the year before was as well.

[lynnsl]

Originally Posted by frogandtoad

great thread, thanks to all who responded! I am coming out of this thread leaning a different direction than the OP. I'm feeling like a great public might be the way to go (our kids are in private in another state at the moment). Goes to show how people are looking for different things!

Do share!

Our latest thinking --

We want the best academic environment for our boys...we define that as highly motivated students, teachers, low ratios, small classes. We are Catholic, so a Christian influence would be nice, but not mandatory. We are not willing to live somewhere without any economic diversity whatsoever. If our $1MM house in UP/HP is the cheapest on the block, that is just not where we want to spend the next 20 years. We have all but eliminated living there, even though it seems clear that they have the best public school district in Dallas. While we really liked the Southlake area (arguably the 2nd "best" school district), it felt very large -- large schools, large classes, large houses, etc. I think it is roughly the same size as the HPISD, but it felt bigger. That, combined with a need for my husband to be downtown a lot, has led us to think about private schools and North Dallas neighborhoods.

Very interested to hear your perspectives...because we definitely havent figured this out completely yet.

[frogandtoad]

Well, first keep in mind I have not even seen the area yet!! But my reasoning is like this...

In UP/HP, you're surrounded by the wealthy (for the most part). Old wealth (for the most part). I am very comfortable w/old wealth (and realize I'll probably get a ton of posts saying there's no difference between old and new, but anyway). I've lived around it most of my life, and find it to be very comfortable, people not snobby or flashy (in general). They may have more than me (and in this case many many of them would), but that wouldn't bother me. I've also lived in places where I have a lot more than those around me. I don't care and I'd hang out w/people who don't care. Self-selecting process. Since we don't show our wealth and don't give our kids all the "things" many of the other kids have anyway, they probably wouldn't even notice where they stood. Many many kids of all wealth levels have the wii and have ipods and cell phones. Not mine. And they won't any time soon. So they're used to not getting what the others have, and it's always been like that, so it woulnd't be anything new to them

If living somewhere like Southlake and doing private, which you mentioned, and which we have considered, I don't think you would get any more economic diversity all. Most of the kids friends would come from school, and who goes to the top privates? Again, mostly wealthy. Very wealthy. So they're still surrounded by it. But now you're in a $700K house in Southlake vs. a $1M in UP/HP. Is that economic diversity? Not to me. Southlake sounds very pretty, but still very wealthy, with greater chance (seems to me) of flashy wealth b/c people there like the huge houses with media rooms, 180 car garages, etc. (which I don't). Kessler Park, etc. seems much less flashy but still very wealthy. Not a lot of economic diversity.

To get economic diversity, I am thinking of two ways. One, live in Lakewood and attend public schools (IB in middle in high school. The middle IB should start in 2 years, IB in HS is already in place). Or
live downtown where there is "real" economic diversity and do private. I don't want to live downtown though. Lakewood is an option.

So I feel like I'd be paying to get what I can already get for free. OK, not free, but it's less expensive over time than all the years of private. We do private now, as I mentioned, and I do like it. But we live where it is very diverse economically, so I feel like it makes sense. There, I'd be living in a place which really isn't economically diverse anyway (Southlake, W.Plano, Kessler Park, etc) and then they'd be in school w/mostly wealthy (many extremely wealthy) anyway. Lakewood seems to be the one exception to all this.

Religion isn't something I particularly want in the school (although I don't mind it either), so that's a neutral for me. Maybe a slight negative to have it in the school but not overwhelming either way.

[frogandtoad]

However having said all that....two things I still am also thinking about are the lack of racial diversity in HP/UP and something you brought up--maybe HP/UP will feel kind of busy.