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I don't think you are a bully. I don't think you understand economics....that's all.
Do you know anything about micro economics and supply and demand? Here is a little lesson. You know you can't manufacture land right? Metro North out of Grand Central Manhattan runs through 2 of our counties one (Fairfield County) having about 30% of the population in CT.
Let's start with population.
NYC.................8.8 million
Boston.............675,000
Providence.......190,000
Median Sold Home
Manhattan NY Median Sold Home.....1.3 million
Greenwich CT (border of CT) to upper Manhattan is about 30 miles. CT has great access to NYC/Manhattan via Metro North. https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...an_NY/overview
Did you know there is this place called Wall Street in NYC?
"Wall Street has such a significant impact on the global economy because it is the trading hub of the biggest financial markets in the world’s richest nation. Wall Street is home to the venerable New York Stock Exchange, which is the undisputed leader worldwide in terms of average daily share trading volume and total market capitalization of its listed companies. The Nasdaq Stock Exchange*, the second-largest exchange globally, also has its headquarters on Wall Street." https://www.investopedia.com/article...ct-economy.asp
All the above makes large portions of CT more expensive for everything.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________
"I use MA as a comparison because it's the adjacent and most similar state to you."
Don't do that.
1) There are more people in NYC than the entire state of MA.
2) You can't compare MA to NYC which a large portion of CT is commutable to.
3) Wall Street
My town in CT to the Museum Mile NYC.........60 miles
My town to Broadway..................................63 miles
When I lived in Stamford CT on a good ride we could make it to Yankee Stadium in about 35 minutes. GO YANKEES!
I understand microeconomics. What i don't understand is the point of this post. None of this even came close to answering my question. It doesn't make sense.
Here are just a few holes in your post that jumped out at me immediately:
Why are you comparing CT to NYC? It's even larger than MA and more of a mismatch.
If one cant compare CT to MA then I guess I should compare to NJ? which I already did.
Why is it that despite proximity to NYC, CT is cheap?
If being close to NYC should make "everything in CT more expensive" then why does FFC have lower property taxes than some other much more distant counties like Hartford County?
Can I compare MA to all the other parts of CT? Since I can't talk about FFC because...NYC?
If being close to NYC makes property taxes high then why are property taxes in NYC low?
How CT heavily in demand or more in demand than lower tax, higher growth Massachusetts? Did not CT just go through 20 years of paltry growth, underwater mortgages, and had to induce demand?
What about the other 70% of your state?
Why is Providence here?
What does the Metro-North Cost CT if you can provide that can you please compare that to what the MBTA WRTA PVTA MVRTA BAT costs MA? i.e. what states spend a higher % of its budget on public tranpsportation? And what is the usage like? Id guess MA is higher on both fronts
Does wall street require suburban Connecticut to implement aggressive property tax?
If everything were really more expensive in CT (than where?) due to the Stock Exchange in NYC would that be reflected in consumer goods, and home values? and not government tax?
Why do cities AND suburbs more expensive than NYC and its metro have a MUCH lower property tax rate? See: the Bay Area
If Boston and NYC as a whole have similar home sale prices why are towns in MA taxed way less than similar towns in CT despite better access to Boston than they have to NYC
IDK.... im getting multiple PMs and rep comments boosting up my last post. People and large agree MA and CT are comparable and they also agree that the property tax is high. Not that they need to agree- its objective fact.
It seems your answer is "the tax is high because it can be" if that the case, okay. That's fine. Tough on homeowners in CT.
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 03-09-2022 at 03:07 PM..
I don't think you are a bully. I don't think you understand economics....that's all.
Do you know anything about micro economics and supply and demand? Here is a little lesson. You know you can't manufacture land right? Metro North out of Grand Central Manhattan runs through 2 of our counties one (Fairfield County) having about 30% of the population in CT.
Let's start with population.
NYC.................8.8 million
Boston.............675,000
Providence.......190,000
Median Sold Home
Manhattan NY Median Sold Home.....1.3 million
Greenwich CT (border of CT) to upper Manhattan is about 30 miles. CT has great access to NYC/Manhattan via Metro North. https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...an_NY/overview
Did you know there is this place called Wall Street in NYC?
"Wall Street has such a significant impact on the global economy because it is the trading hub of the biggest financial markets in the world’s richest nation. Wall Street is home to the venerable New York Stock Exchange, which is the undisputed leader worldwide in terms of average daily share trading volume and total market capitalization of its listed companies. The Nasdaq Stock Exchange*, the second-largest exchange globally, also has its headquarters on Wall Street." https://www.investopedia.com/article...ct-economy.asp
All the above makes large portions of CT more expensive for everything.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________
"I use MA as a comparison because it's the adjacent and most similar state to you."
Don't do that.
1) There are more people in NYC than the entire state of MA.
2) You can't compare MA to NYC which a large portion of CT is commutable to.
3) Wall Street
My town in CT to the Museum Mile NYC.........60 miles
My town to Broadway..................................63 miles
When I lived in Stamford CT on a good ride we could make it to Yankee Stadium in about 35 minutes. GO YANKEES!
So you cherry pick Manhattan for NYC property prices. No Bronx? Compare Back Bay to Manhattan and you’ll get totally different numbers. The Back Bay median sale price is $2.4 million.
The point of this thread is that Connecticut property taxes are high. That’s true of all of NYC tri-state. Massachusetts has a ballot initiative system to change the state constitution. In the late-1970s, Proposition 2 1/2 was passed to change to state constitution to limit property tax rates and increases. That put fiscal constraints on cities and towns so they couldn’t just cave in to public sector union demands for increased pay and benefits. The state then subsidies the poor/low tax base places similar to what Connecticut does with Hartford. On top of that, the constitution mandates a flat income tax. There’s no “soak the rich” graduated tax like Connecticut that keeps boosting the rates on the upper income brackets. The income tax rate has gone down, not up. It’s a flat 5% and no politician is going to risk getting voted out of office for increasing the tax rate on everyone.
It’s not perfect but it has stopped the biggest excesses and Massachusetts has all the expected blue state services that Connecticut has. A bit more value for your tax dollars.
So you cherry pick Manhattan for NYC property prices. No Bronx? Compare Back Bay to Manhattan and you’ll get totally different numbers. The Back Bay median sale price is $2.4 million.
The point of this thread is that Connecticut property taxes are high. That’s true of all of NYC tri-state. Massachusetts has a ballot initiative system to change the state constitution. In the late-1970s, Proposition 2 1/2 was passed to change to state constitution to limit property tax rates and increases. That put fiscal constraints on cities and towns so they couldn’t just cave in to public sector union demands for increased pay and benefits. The state then subsidies the poor/low tax base places similar to what Connecticut does with Hartford. On top of that, the constitution mandates a flat income tax. There’s no “soak the rich” graduated tax like Connecticut that keeps boosting the rates on the upper income brackets. The income tax rate has gone down, not up. It’s a flat 5% and no politician is going to risk getting voted out of office for increasing the tax rate on everyone.
It’s not perfect but it has stopped the biggest excesses and Massachusetts has all the expected blue state services that Connecticut has. A bit more value for your tax dollars.
+1 in all honesty the point of this thread was to find out if they're as high as I calculated and they were. Secondly, it was to find out why. It wasn't just to say theyre high.
I came here because I was having a CvC discussion and wanted to confirm this property tax thing.
+1 in all honesty the point of this thread was to find out if they're as high as I calculated and they were. Secondly, it was to find out why. It wasn't just to say theyre high.
I came here because I was having a CvC discussion and wanted to confirm this property tax thing.
Yes they're as high as you calculated. Public schools are where large portions of those taxes go.
The major cities have very low property values (as low as in the 100's and lower) so they need to prop up the mills.
In the gold plate school districts people pay the big prop tax bills instead of private school tuition.
Property taxes are why 7K residents are on the leaving CT FB page. Most don't need the public schools anymore.
As NYC continues on it's catastrophic collapse into a black hole of madness, those escaping it's clutches will be more than willing to pay CT property taxes.
I don't know if this is sarcasm or 'humor'... But ill shoot.
...RI has a lower property tax CT on average (1.53% compared to 2.2%). And probably a lower-income tax on average (maxes out at 5.99% compared to 6.99%).
A few CT posters (not most) are weird I don't know why you take any question or criticism of CT so personally some times. It's not anywhere near that deep. I use MA as a comparison because it's the adjacent and most similar state to you. That seems like the logical thing to do.
I asked a question it was answered. Other CT people chimed in with some personal anecdotes and I asked more questions in response to them. If you are this aggrieved then please don't sarcastically move to MA- I don't live there, so it doesn't affect me- but no one needs that negative energy for virtually no reason. But fwiw it certainly does seem like many of you all DO keep moving to MA.
How are you gonna take issue with someone asking bout your tax structure and where the money goes. Is that not the point of this site? I guess you think I'm digging CT when I've on multiple occasion recommended people in the MA forum looking to move there to give Connecticut a chance/a look/consideration. I've definitely been found big upping Hartford in its development thread and in the MA forum so dont identify me as some weirdo CT bully.
It is not taking it personally or taking issue with you asking questions. It’s correcting misinformation.
I have posted MULTIPLE times the taxes of comparable homes in comparable towns and found that Massachusetts property taxes on homes are no lower than Connecticut. There is a fallacy that Massachusetts Proposition 2 1/2 has kept taxes lower there but that is not necessarily true. The state has granted literally thousands of exemptions to that law so really taxes are not lower. I’d suggest you do comparisons of actual taxes on actual homes in comparable towns you are considering.
Furthermore, I’ve done similar comparisons in other states and found surprisingly similar results. That includes states like Florida, Washington, California, Virginia, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island and New Hampshire. The difference in many of those states there are unincorporated areas where there are no services so there are low taxes. Connecticut does not have that.
Another thing to note is that Massachusetts also has a car tax which actually can be higher the first two years. Then it drops significantly so it is less after that. Pb
You keep posting general percentages of home values statewide. It sounds like you are reading data from The Yankee Institute, the highly biased conservative think tank. As we have talked about here before, their “analyses” are hardly impartial. The taxes they consider in analyses tends to lean toward making Connecticut look bad. Jay
I don't know if this is sarcasm or 'humor'... But ill shoot.
A few CT posters (not most) are weird I don't know why you take any question or criticism of CT so personally some times. It's not anywhere near that deep. I use MA as a comparison because it's the adjacent and most similar state to you. That seems like the logical thing to do.
On the contrary, I love criticism of CT. Hopefully it will get more people to leave or at least join the "leaving CT facebook" group. The criticism is just jealousy in disguise.
And New Jersey would actually be a better comparison to CT than MA.
It is not taking it personally or taking issue with you asking questions. It’s correcting misinformation.
I have posted MULTIPLE times the taxes of comparable homes in comparable towns and found that Massachusetts property taxes on homes are no lower than Connecticut. There is a fallacy that Massachusetts Proposition 2 1/2 has kept taxes lower there but that is not necessarily true. The state has granted literally thousands of exemptions to that law so really taxes are not lower. I’d suggest you do comparisons of actual taxes on actual homes in comparable towns you are considering.
Furthermore, I’ve done similar comparisons in other states and found surprisingly similar results. That includes states like Florida, Washington, California, Virginia, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island and New Hampshire. The difference in many of those states there are unincorporated areas where there are no services so there are low taxes. Connecticut does not have that.
Another thing to note is that Massachusetts also has a car tax which actually can be higher the first two years. Then it drops significantly so it is less after that. Pb
You keep posting general percentages of home values statewide. It sounds like you are reading data from The Yankee Institute, the highly biased conservative think tank. As we have talked about here before, their “analyses” are hardly impartial. The taxes they consider in analyses tends to lean toward making Connecticut look bad. Jay
In MA, the tax is calculated based on a 25% mil rate and adjusted per model year.
In the year preceding the designated year of manufacture (brand new car released before model year) - 50%
In the designated year of manufacture- 90%
In the second year - 60%
In the third year - 40%
In the fourth year - 25%
In the fifth and succeeding years -10%
In CT, it's based the town mil rate. My car taxes on a 2017 Suburu and a 2014 Ford increased massively when I moved here. I'm paying 29 mils on 70% of the value. In MA, I was paying 25 mils on 40% for one and 10% on the other. Sure, in Year 1, I got hammered because I bought it brand new, but after that I've been way ahead. If I had bought a late model, it wouldn't be close.
Last edited by WestRiverTraveler; 03-10-2022 at 07:07 AM..
It is not taking it personally or taking issue with you asking questions. It’s correcting misinformation.
I have posted MULTIPLE times the taxes of comparable homes in comparable towns and found that Massachusetts property taxes on homes are no lower than Connecticut. There is a fallacy that Massachusetts Proposition 2 1/2 has kept taxes lower there but that is not necessarily true. The state has granted literally thousands of exemptions to that law so really taxes are not lower. I’d suggest you do comparisons of actual taxes on actual homes in comparable towns you are considering.
Furthermore, I’ve done similar comparisons in other states and found surprisingly similar results. That includes states like Florida, Washington, California, Virginia, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island and New Hampshire. The difference in many of those states there are unincorporated areas where there are no services so there are low taxes. Connecticut does not have that.
Another thing to note is that Massachusetts also has a car tax which actually can be higher the first two years. Then it drops significantly so it is less after that. Pb
You keep posting general percentages of home values statewide. It sounds like you are reading data from The Yankee Institute, the highly biased conservative think tank. As we have talked about here before, their “analyses” are hardly impartial. The taxes they consider in analyses tends to lean toward making Connecticut look bad. Jay
Agreed. Property taxes vary quite a bit in CT. People have opportunities to move to a lower tax community if they choose to. Often they are options 1 or 2 towns away from the area they currently reside. Higher taxes may mean more services or more bloat. A deeper dive into individual communities is needed to accurately access the "true" cost of living there. It's important to realize that property taxes are just one component. What's true in CT is true elsewhere. I travel to south Florida quite a bit. I have found that the true cost of living there is about 20% higher than the Hartford area for day-to-day living expenses. Property taxes may be lower but food, rent, home prices, and insurance are much higher than the majority of places in CT on a square footage basis. There are cheaper places to live inland or in northern Florida but for many people looking to relocate there they are looking for a level of living similar or better than they have here and they tend to migrate toward the larger developed areas and coastal communities. Crime considerations are also a big issue as cheaper areas often have much higher crime rates than most of CT. That being said, it is true that those with very high incomes/wealth can realize significant savings in income and capital gains taxes. However, for the median or lower income household most will find that they will make less and pay more if residing in popular areas.
Agreed. Property taxes vary quite a bit in CT. People have opportunities to move to a lower tax community if they choose to. Often they are options 1 or 2 towns away from the area they currently reside. Higher taxes may mean more services or more bloat. A deeper dive into individual communities is needed to accurately access the "true" cost of living there. It's important to realize that property taxes are just one component. What's true in CT is true elsewhere. I travel to south Florida quite a bit. I have found that the true cost of living there is about 20% higher than the Hartford area for day-to-day living expenses. Property taxes may be lower but food, rent, home prices, and insurance are much higher than the majority of places in CT on a square footage basis. There are cheaper places to live inland or in northern Florida but for many people looking to relocate there they are looking for a level of living similar or better than they have here and they tend to migrate toward the larger developed areas and coastal communities. Crime considerations are also a big issue as cheaper areas often have much higher crime rates than most of CT. That being said, it is true that those with very high incomes/wealth can realize significant savings in income and capital gains taxes. However, for the median or lower income household most will find that they will make less and pay more if residing in popular areas.
Not really. This system creates the Waterbury problem with an astounding $60 mill rate, collapsed property values, and wildly underfunded schools and services. “Let them move to Greenwich with the lower mill rate” is pretty disingenuous.
Agreed. Property taxes vary quite a bit in CT. People have opportunities to move to a lower tax community if they choose to. Often they are options 1 or 2 towns away from the area they currently reside. Higher taxes may mean more services or more bloat. A deeper dive into individual communities is needed to accurately access the "true" cost of living there. It's important to realize that property taxes are just one component. What's true in CT is true elsewhere. I travel to south Florida quite a bit. I have found that the true cost of living there is about 20% higher than the Hartford area for day-to-day living expenses. Property taxes may be lower but food, rent, home prices, and insurance are much higher than the majority of places in CT on a square footage basis. There are cheaper places to live inland or in northern Florida but for many people looking to relocate there they are looking for a level of living similar or better than they have here and they tend to migrate toward the larger developed areas and coastal communities. Crime considerations are also a big issue as cheaper areas often have much higher crime rates than most of CT. That being said, it is true that those with very high incomes/wealth can realize significant savings in income and capital gains taxes. However, for the median or lower income household most will find that they will make less and pay more if residing in popular areas.
One thing that shocked me about Florida that people don’t realize is the number of fees you can pay if you live in popular areas.
For example, The Villages have an Infrastructure Fee that could be as much as $20-$30,000. There are also HOA fees (to maintain the common areas), Amenity Fees (to maintain the amenities like the clubhouse, pools, tennis, etc.), Trail Fees (to maintain the golf cart trails), and lawn watering fee (to maintain the lawn sprinkler system). These add hundreds, if not thousands to a surprisingly high tax bill as well.
Friends of my family chose to live just outside The Villages to avoid some of these fees which is an option but as you point out people also have the option to live in lower tax communities. That doesn’t mean you have a “Let them move to Greenwich” attitude. There are towns across the state known for having lower taxes (Wallingford, Farmington, etc.). You just have to look for them. Jay
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