Upper South vs Deep South.... (live, state, places, population)

[KodeBlue]

Would far the northern tip of West Virginia considered the south too? It is north of Pittsburgh. Is Atlantic City considered southern?? It is directly east of Baltimore.

[EclecticEars]

Originally Posted by jonathancalderon71

would the southeren tip of ohio be upper south.

As a former resident of the Cincinnati area, I have to disagree. Not even the southernmost ends of Clermont, Brown or Adams Counties, as well as the old river villages/burgs in Hamilton County. Appalachian and Southern influences, yes, but overwhelmingly?

Ohio's where the Midwest begins to transition into "East Coast."

[CookieSkoon]

Originally Posted by Mutiny77

I misread his statement. He actually said that there's not a star on the Confederate flag for Maryland. Well there wasn't one for Kentucky either as it was also a Union slave state.

Actually from what I've heard there is a star for Kentucky.

Originally Posted by Marietta89

Culturally speaking SE Ohio and Southern Ohio could be considered the upper south. This is a stong southern appalchia area compared to even most parts of the country. During the war people most of these areas were considered strong copperheads (anti Union and southern sympathy). Heck, even up to the 1950 at a restraunt in a hotel in called the Neil House in Marietta, Ohio would not serve blacks unless it was on Thursday which was maids day off. This was the time my great grandparents were living and this was southern ohio not montgomery, alabama!

So? There were copperheads and establishments that refused to serve blacks in the fifties in Pennsylvania and New York and New Jersey and Michigan and Indiana and Illinois and Wisconsin as well. Doesn't make any of them southern.

You know where we disagree on Ohio so I won't reiterate the whole song and dance again.

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by CookieSkoon

Actually from what I've heard there is a star for Kentucky.

Interesting. It appears so, and there's one for Missouri as well. So I don't think the whole "star on the flag" argument amounts to much. Furthermore, it seems that if it weren't for Lincoln's interventions in Maryland, they would have also had a secessionist faction that would have given the state a star on the flag as was the case for Kentucky and Missouri.

[Bobilee]

Originally Posted by KodeBlue

Would far the northern tip of West Virginia considered the south too? It is north of Pittsburgh. Is Atlantic City considered southern?? It is directly east of Baltimore.

The geographical location of the northern panhandle of WV has nothing to do with whether or not it is southern. I'm not saying it is, but it certainly was at one time, the furthest north of any slaveholding and slave markets, and the furthest north of any city that voted in favor of secession from the United States in 1861. The town of Bethany in Brooke County voted in favor of secession. Not that that means anything for today, but geography isn't everything.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Mutiny77

Interesting. It appears so, and there's one for Missouri as well. So I don't think the whole "star on the flag" argument amounts to much. Furthermore, it seems that if it weren't for Lincoln's interventions in Maryland, they would have also had a secessionist faction that would have given the state a star on the flag as was the case for Kentucky and Missouri.

Exactly. Neither one officially joined the Confederacy (although it was later quipped that Kentucky joined after the War! LOL), but Southern sympathies were strong enough in both states to form a sorta "rump government" that sent reps to the Confederate Congress, and they were counted as members, and a star placed on the CSA flags. And quite a few men from each state (although not quite a majority), formed military regiments or left their states to join other Confederate units.

True that Lincoln took some very harsh measures in Maryland, but it is still very debatable whether or not it would have seceded if things had taken their natural course. There are good arguments on both sides of that hypothetical question. For sure though, the numbers which joined the Union army as opposed to the Confederate, were clearly the former. And Marylanders -- by and large -- didn't give much support even when Lee's army went into the state (prior to Sharpsburg/Antietam).

But as always at this time of the morning, time to go to work, dammit! Everyone have a good day!

[$mk8795]

Originally Posted by annie_himself

...so is Los Angeles.

Southwest

[$mk8795]

Originally Posted by KodeBlue

I thinks it comes down to feel. I know people on this site wont agree because they can't find little charts and surveys, or other BS data, but it basically comes down to if a place feels southern. Baltimore definitely does NOT feel southern, neither does DC.

Neither does Richmond, Norfolk, Fort Lauderdale, or Miami..........

[$mk8795]

Originally Posted by EclecticEars

I take it a step further:

• "Texas" South: It's own distinct culture and attitude, but with many southern attributes. "In the South but not of the South" was how I read it by a Texas forum poster a long time ago.
• "Plains/Lower Midwest" South: Not entirely of the South, but with many Southern attributes. They didn't have active roles in the Confederacy. Even some twangs. Examples:
  • Oklahoma
  • Southernmost 30 miles of Missouri and the boot heel (the Confederate exception)
  • Southernmost 15-20 miles of Illinois

Indiana and Ohio do not count. Not even Evansville and Cincinnati have enough Southern attributes to wash out their "Midwestern-ness.

• Upper South:
  • Kentucky (sans Louisville and N. KY)
  • Southernmost 50 miles of West Virginia
  • Southern 2/3 of Virginia
  • Northern 3/4 of North Carolina
• Mid-South:
  • Arkansas
  • Tennessee
  • The rest of North Carolina
  • Northern 1/4 of Georgia
  • Northern 1/4 of Alabama
  • Northern 1/4 of Mississippi
• Deep South:
  • South Carolina
  • The rest of Georgia
  • The rest of Alabama
  • The rest of Mississippi
  • Louisiana
  • Northern 1/5 of Florida, plus some scattered inland small towns

The rest of Florida has basically become a relocation tank for every place else on Earth. So, I don't count it as being "Southern."

Most of the northern rest of Virginia and northern rest of West Virginia have their own things going on culturally. Not quite South, not 100% Appalachia, but not nearly Mid-Atlantic or Northeastern. Just kinda...there. Urbanized/suburbanized NoVA, however, is plain ol' Northeastern these days. In Kentucky, Louisville and Northern Kentucky are strange Southern/Midwestern hybrids but are majoritatively Midwestern, enough to not be classified as Southern, IMO.

Maryland and Delaware don't count. Maybe their southernmost beach towns were heavily Southern influenced 50 years ago, but folks from farther northeast seem to have really influenced both states culturally now.

Your opinion does not count and will not ever ever ever Dictate against the FACT that Maryland is a Southern State........

[$mk8795]

Originally Posted by stlouisan

You're correct there, however, if the culture doesn't fit, and the people don't play the part, calling a state Southern is just like labeling a cat as a dog. Maryland is unquestionably more like Pennsylvania today than Virginia.

And Florida is more like the Caribbean, Texas is more like Mexico, while St. Louis is more like Flint.........