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Of any downtown? Now that's going a bit over board. Out of all the cities I've been to the most impressive transformation I've seen in person would be NYC, Chicago, Miami and Philly. Now those cities have had the most transformation when you stack up all the projects together. Even if KC, Indy, St Louis and Omaha were combined as one city NYC alone would have more.
I know many cities have done more, but there are few cities that that completely rebuilt their downtown in such a short period. KCMO’s downtown couldn’t compete with Indy’s ten years ago. No way in hell. KC’s downtown couldn’t compete with any major city ten years ago. The place was a total disaster and nothing more than office towers and blight. What KC has done to turn downtown around is nothing short of amazing.
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Originally Posted by urbanologist
Okay, let's put a side the outer neighborhoods (Country Plaza, Soulard etc) for once. Would you go to say that KC would have the most vibrantly active "downtown" than St Louis in the entire state?
As far as downtown vs downtown, I personally think KC’s is better than StL right now. Now downtown StL has three sports venues, the arch etc so there is often a lot of people in downtown StL, for the most part they drive to the stadiums and drive how, walk to and from the metro etc. It’s not sustained. KCMO’s downtown seems a bit further along as a neighborhood and place to live. Washington Ave in StL is great, but so much of downtown StL still needs to be revitalized. Once that happens, than StL will blow away KC’s downtown. Having said that, StL has more vibrant areas outside of their downtown than KC does and I just like the layout and feel of the entire metro area better than KC. So I do prefer Metro STL over Metro KC, but would only give StL city a slight edge over urban kcmo and give downtown KCMO the slight edge over downtown StL.
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Originally Posted by urbanologist
When will the street cars come? It seems that over the years the lightrail proposals keep getting kicked to the curb with disappointment when ever it's on the table for Indy, Columbus, KC and Milwaukee. It's fustrating not to see at least see one of them getting a line built so the other cities could reconsider more seriously.
Well, light rail has been a disaster for KC. They just can’t get it done and that so frustrating because the linear layout of KCMO with the downtown, crown center, Westport, plaza, midtown etc would be perfect for light rail to connect all that together and then branch off from that to the suburbs in all directions. But light rail is now a pipe dream for KC. They have given up on it. But the city is full speed ahead on streetcars and it looks like that will happen and the first line should be operational within 3-4 years. I don’t get why the first line doesn’t go to the plaza, but hopefully it will be extended there soon.
You keep bring up MLB but you leave out the racing fans. Love it or hate it racing is a popular sport. Nascar which I'm not into is popular. There aren't any cities in the country let alone the world that can boast the world's largest crowd into one stadium like IMS. Lucas Oil even though expensive with a retractable roof like Houston's isn't even the city's largest. IMS is highest-capacity stadium-type facility in the world (even larger than the new one recently built in China). Indianapolis Motor Speedway is also older than MLB's Fenway (1912) or Wrigley Field (1914) established in 1909. If we can fill up IMS I'm sure we have the population to easily support a MLB stadium. Indy is pretty much an established Cubs and Indianapolis Indian fan base territory. We are a die hard sports town after all so any team established here could easily get strong support.
I’m not downplaying the popularity of racing and how important that is to Indy. But baseball is so much more integrated into a community. People in KC watch the Royals and go to many Royals games. They play like 182 games. They are either in town or on TV and very much a part of the culture of the city. It’s not a onetime event or even a few times a year, it’s a spring to fall entertainment option and it’s part of the KC culture. The Royals have sucked, but they have a huge following. KC is one of the smallest markets with one of the worst teams that have been terrible for a very long time and they are still drawing more than many much larger cities with better teams. They drew 30k last night.
We are still Royals fans and we follow them out here and you would be amazed at how many Royals fans show up at east coast ballparks (or any park across the country). While many are not into baseball, MLB is very much a big part of the entertainment package KC offers and going to a massive race once or twice a year is great, but I just don’t think it’s anything like having a MLB team. We would go to 1-2 games a week when I was in KC. My kids love it etc and lot of others do the same. It’s hard to explain. I’m watching them as I type this, looks like a nice crowd today too. The best baseball city in the country is St Louis (followed by Boston and Milwaukee and maybe Philly), but if the Royals ever hinted at competing for the playoffs, they would sell out nearly every game. It's one of the best baseball cities in the country and deserves a better team than the royals have been.
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo
I’m not downplaying the popularity of racing and how important that is to Indy. But baseball is so much more integrated into a community. People in KC watch the Royals and go to many Royals games. They play like 182 games. They are either in town or on TV and very much a part of the culture of the city. It’s not a onetime event or even a few times a year, it’s a spring to fall entertainment option and it’s part of the KC culture. The Royals have sucked, but they have a huge following. KC is one of the smallest markets with one of the worst teams that have been terrible for a very long time and they are still drawing more than many much larger cities with better teams. They drew 30k last night.
We are still Royals fans and we follow them out here and you would be amazed at how many Royals fans show up at east coast ballparks (or any park across the country). While many are not into baseball, MLB is very much a big part of the entertainment package KC offers and going to a massive race once or twice a year is great, but I just don’t think it’s anything like having a MLB team. We would go to 1-2 games a week when I was in KC. My kids love it etc and lot of others do the same. It’s hard to explain. I’m watching them as I type this, looks like a nice crowd today too. The best baseball city in the country is St Louis (followed by Boston and Milwaukee and maybe Philly), but if the Royals ever hinted at competing for the playoffs, they would sell out nearly every game. It's one of the best baseball cities in the country and deserves a better team than the royals have been.
162 games, not 182. Obviously with the additional of the fifth team this year, it's certainly possible for 182 games to be played including the post-season.
I’m not downplaying the popularity of racing and how important that is to Indy. But baseball is so much more integrated into a community. People in KC watch the Royals and go to many Royals games. They play like 182 games. They are either in town or on TV and very much a part of the culture of the city. It’s not a onetime event or even a few times a year, it’s a spring to fall entertainment option and it’s part of the KC culture. The Royals have sucked, but they have a huge following. KC is one of the smallest markets with one of the worst teams that have been terrible for a very long time and they are still drawing more than many much larger cities with better teams. They drew 30k last night.
We are still Royals fans and we follow them out here and you would be amazed at how many Royals fans show up at east coast ballparks (or any park across the country). While many are not into baseball, MLB is very much a big part of the entertainment package KC offers and going to a massive race once or twice a year is great, but I just don’t think it’s anything like having a MLB team. We would go to 1-2 games a week when I was in KC. My kids love it etc and lot of others do the same. It’s hard to explain. I’m watching them as I type this, looks like a nice crowd today too. The best baseball city in the country is St Louis (followed by Boston and Milwaukee and maybe Philly), but if the Royals ever hinted at competing for the playoffs, they would sell out nearly every game. It's one of the best baseball cities in the country and deserves a better team than the royals have been.
Yeah, I recall many years ago seeing the I-70 World Series game on TV between the Cards and Royals. I can't imagine how divided the fan base was in Missouri.
The more I investigate KC, the more impressed I get. That whole Ward Pkwy/Volker Blvd area that runs past Country Club Plaza, with the bike trails and development along Bush Creek, with the multiple closely-spaced bridges over the water, seems really nice. Seems rather similar to downtown Providence, RI.
Same deal here in the DC area. People about fall over when I tell them that KC has over 2 million people. It's crazy.
Kinda gives you insight into how oblivious or non-thinking some people can be. I'd BET you those same people know that KC has a Chiefs NFL team and a Royals MLB team. And you'd think that everybody who follows either NFL or MLB would KNOW that to have a franchise, a city practically HAS to have over 1 million people MSA (except maybe if you're a frozen meatpacking and cheese kinda place), and to have 2 franchises, not just barely over 1 million but considerably over 1 million. Yet they don't intuitively put 2 and 2 together. They have the information to do so, they just don't do so. Go figure.
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Originally Posted by kcmo
people from outside the KC area call places like Overland Park Kansas City, Kansas and people in Overland Park HATE
Interesting. They don't like being associated with Kansas City? State-wise they are Kansans, right? All suburbanites owe their neigborhoods' existence TO the existence of the city center- it's growth created the suburbs. So is it that they somehow think they should be seen indepenently of Kansas City, as if they are solely responsible for their own existence/growth or is it that they are ashamed of being Kansans? This is a really curious thing.
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Originally Posted by kcmo
Downtown football stadiums are terrible for any sort of decent urban fabric and vibrancy. They require mass parking and create mass dead zones and are rarely used.
I disagree with this, at least it doesn't have to automatically be the case. How the stadium is integrated into the environment makes a huge difference. The Tennesse Titans have a stadium which sits along a riverfront park, and are planning to transform the parking lot into an urban forest. Long-range plans include creating a new canal on the opposite side with mixed-use elements and a new riverwalk to add to the already existing one. The stadium ITSELF will only get used for part of the time, but the way the parking grounds are integrated with the waterfront/park/mixed use elements will ENHANCE the vibrancy, and of course during game days will enhance it even more. The area, once all plans are completed, certainly won't be anything close to a dead zone. And it's all because of HOW the stadium grounds are integrated. They can create a dead zone, but they don't have to.
Kinda gives you insight into how oblivious or non-thinking some people can be. I'd BET you those same people know that KC has a Chiefs NFL team and a Royals MLB team. And you'd think that everybody who follows either NFL or MLB would KNOW that to have a franchise, a city practically HAS to have over 1 million people MSA (except maybe if you're a frozen meatpacking and cheese kinda place), and to have 2 franchises, not just barely over 1 million but considerably over 1 million. Yet they don't intuitively put 2 and 2 together. They have the information to do so, they just don't do so. Go figure.
So true. It's always baffled me as to what people are thinking. I guess all the farmers from across Kansas show up at the stadiums?
KC at one time had all four leagues plus an indoor soccer team that averaged 17k a game.
Today, KC has the Royals and Chiefs plus a MLS team that sells out every game and several minor league teams. I would think that would translate into people having a pretty good idea that KC is a pretty good sized city, but it just doesn’t.
I think most people think of most cities in the Midwest as being much smaller than they are. KC just has an added handicap because of its name “Kansas” City. People just can’t think urban and populated and sophisticated and Kansas in the same thought, even though nearly everything but some of the area’s suburbs are not even in the state of Kansas.
Indy, St Louis and Omaha all deal with similar issues. Omaha is actually a nice urban city, despite being surrounded by corn! Indianapolis is much larger and nicer than most people realize and StLouis just gets a bad rap all around. Few seem to know it has almost 3 million people as is the 18th largest metro and one of the most urban in the country. Plus it’s not near as crime ridden as people think.
People just need to get out of their bubbles more, especially people on the coasts IMO.
Interesting. They don't like being associated with Kansas City? State-wise they are Kansans, right? All suburbanites owe their neigborhoods' existence TO the existence of the city center- it's growth created the suburbs. So is it that they somehow think they should be seen indepenently of Kansas City, as if they are solely responsible for their own existence/growth or is it that they are ashamed of being Kansans? This is a really curious thing.
I'll try to explain what I mean here. People from outside the area often think the KC area is like the twin cities or DFW with two urban centers. Kansas City, Kansas and Kansas City, Missouri. So they often call anything on the Kansas side "Kansas City, Kansas" even if they are talking about Overland Park etc.
In reality, Kansas City, Kansas functions more like a suburb of KCMO and KCMO itself has secondary business districts much larger than downtown KCK. The Kansas side of KC includes large suburbs in Johnson County and that county alone has close to 600k residents and is a suburb of KCMO while KCK only has 150k. KCK is sort of the industrial stepchild of the metro.
Kansas side residents will often identify themselves as Kansans before Kansas Citians, but at the same time, most Kansas side residents don’t want to be associated with KCK either (even though nobody outside of KC knows the difference between KC and KCK). Most people on the MO side indentify themselves with KC first then Missouri, even in the suburbs, so it’s opposite. So while Kansas side people do distance themselves from the core city of KCMO more than the MO side suburbanites, they are more likely to associate with KCMO than KCK.
If you understand any of what I just posted, then you are probably a genius. KC is a very confusing place when it comes to geography and how the area interacts. It's a very unique situation.
I disagree with this, at least it doesn't have to automatically be the case. How the stadium is integrated into the environment makes a huge difference. The Tennesse Titans have a stadium which sits along a riverfront park, and are planning to transform the parking lot into an urban forest. Long-range plans include creating a new canal on the opposite side with mixed-use elements and a new riverwalk to add to the already existing one. The stadium ITSELF will only get used for part of the time, but the way the parking grounds are integrated with the waterfront/park/mixed use elements will ENHANCE the vibrancy, and of course during game days will enhance it even more. The area, once all plans are completed, certainly won't be anything close to a dead zone. And it's all because of HOW the stadium grounds are integrated. They can create a dead zone, but they don't have to.
Totally agree. There are exceptions and Nashville is a great example of how it can be done, but you wouldn’t want that stadium on the other side of the river in Nashville, it would do more harm than good if it were actually downtown.
It would be nice if Arrowhead was on the riverfront and at least accessible from downtown, yet far enough away to not harm the urban fabric of the city. But It’s fine where it’s at too. The baseball stadium should be in the city though.
If you understand any of what I just posted, then you are probably a genius.
Not a genius by far, but I do think I understand where you're coming from.
Overland Park residents, because of their connection with Kansas, ie. being Kansas state residents, distance themselves from KCMO because KCMO is in MO and they just can't see embracing MO so openly. At the same time, whereas they might othewise associate with KCK because it's in Kansas, they actually don't because KCK is so industrial-stepchild-y and not anything to boast about and take pride in, that they'd just as soon not be associated with it either out of a sort of quasi-embarrassment. So they'd prefer not to be associated with either.
At least I think that's what you were saying. Seems like identity crisis on steroids.
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Originally Posted by kcmo
It would be nice if Arrowhead was on the riverfront and at least accessible from downtown, yet far enough away to not harm the urban fabric of the city. But It’s fine where it’s at too. The baseball stadium should be in the city though.
Why the difference? The frequency of MLB games vs. NFL games?
Last edited by MantaRay; 06-03-2012 at 09:32 AM..
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