Four major middle Midwest metros: Kansas City, Saint Louis, Omaha, Indianapolis (living, best)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
5,509 posts, read 11,880,875 times
Reputation: 2501
Advertisements
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrIndependent
St. Louis is NOT in the same grouping as Denver, MPLS, Seattle, or Portland. Don't kid yourself. Those cities belong to their own group along with Austin and San Diego.
Now Baltimore, yes. However, Baltimore is a city on the downward spiral that doesn't have much going for it, so I don't think that is a compliment. Cleveland might be in the same group, just because of it's historic and cultural stature. But once again, Cleveland's best days are far behind it. I think Pittsburgh is a great comparison for St. Louis. Both cities are from that Rust Belt background but are actually moving forward with promising futures.
Minneapolis compares itself with St. Louis, whether or not you think it does/should. It also compares itself with SD, Seattle, Portland, Denver, Pittsburgh and Cleveland. Cleveland and St. Louis are VERY comparable, IMO, having lived in both. Cleveland is the more quentessential Rust Belt city, but both are struggling big cities that have long since seen their heydays but are too important and frankly, too cool, to go down quietly (or at all). I predict a major renaissance in both cities and the Midwest in general. I don't see either of them overtaking Chicago, Detroit, Minny any time soon but can/will overtake their peers by and large over the next 20-30 years.
Yea, well there are a lot of people in the KC "region" than couldn't find Hyde Park on a map if their lives depended on it.
Here is a photo of Hyde Park.
Does Indy have areas like this several miles from downtown? The Plaza, Westport, Union Hill, UMKC, Volker, Valentine etc in addition to downtown.
God, the way you post pictures and constantly hate on Indy seriously gets old. By the way, that area doesn't look to much larger than the Midtown area in Indianapolis. In fact, if Indianapolis ever invested in public transit on Meridian Street, that's probably a mirror image of what it would look like. So yes, there are high-rises outside of downtown Indianapolis.
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 5,098,363 times
Reputation: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by west336
Minneapolis compares itself with St. Louis, whether or not you think it does/should. It also compares itself with SD, Seattle, Portland, Denver, Pittsburgh and Cleveland. Cleveland and St. Louis are VERY comparable, IMO, having lived in both. Cleveland is the more quentessential Rust Belt city, but both are struggling big cities that have long since seen their heydays but are too important and frankly, too cool, to go down quietly (or at all). I predict a major renaissance in both cities and the Midwest in general. I don't see either of them overtaking Chicago, Detroit, Minny any time soon but can/will overtake their peers by and large over the next 20-30 years.
God, the way you post pictures and constantly hate on Indy seriously gets old. By the way, that area doesn't look to much larger than the Midtown area in Indianapolis. In fact, if Indianapolis ever invested in public transit on Meridian Street, that's probably a mirror image of what it would look like. So yes, there are high-rises outside of downtown Indianapolis.
A lot of Indy folks here were really downplaying the importance of having strong areas that aren't downtown. KCMO's photos were evidence to the contrary.
From what I have been finding online even Omaha's midtown might be further along than Indy's. And KC Omaha's non downtown urban districts are thriving right now with no better public transportation than Indy.
And none of this is a slight to the city, its just a process. Broad Ripple looks like a great node. It looks like Indy is making progress in other areas, but all the master plans and videos I found are only 2 years old where Omaha has been working for the better part of a decade and KC even longer.
Interesting as I write this I'm actually in KC right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.davis
Right. Read the next sentence in the passage you quoted:
I posted those links because you seem to think that suburban type development only exists in some areas of Indy and not KC which turned out to be false. KC has plenty.
Quote:
What you seem to be missing, although at this point it seems more like you are just intentionally ignoring, is that downtown Indianapolis is not just that single census tract.
No, it is not the only tract but it does have the the highest density of both downtowns was my point earlier.
Quote:
With regards to the Plaza, if you'll reread, you'll see I noted that it wasn't downtown. However, you specifically asked for an example in KC's core of a higher population than Indy's densest census tract in a smaller area.
I provided an example of an area in KC with similar population, but 2100 people per square mile denser. There are other examples in KC. And, bear in mind, those "suburban" W. Plaza areas you are referring to are more densely populated than anything in Indianapolis.
Sure, if a bus load of people makes a big difference but the suburban style single family homes in West Plaza don't hold a candle on the historic urban dense architectural buildings in the Wholesale District or Monument Cirlce. They don't even compare to the historic homes in Lockerbie Square or the St Joseph neighborhood. It looks more suburban than anything that resembles more of Indy's Northside neighborhood of all places.
Quote:
I guess I'm not sure why you are so hung up on this. I'm not insulting Indianapolis. I certainly don't hold KC up as a paragon of density (reread the posts, you'll see that). Hell, I don't think any of the cities listed in this poll are "dense", or particularly "urban" cities, not even St Louis, which is the densest of the lot. I do know, and all the data bear it out, that KC is denser than Indianapolis, as is its downtown, as is its urban core, as are its urban neighborhoods and as is its urbanized area. It's not a slight. Its a fact.
Yes, we know that downtown Indy's NW area neighborhood is denser than any area of downtown KC and looks more urban than tract 71.
KC has a more urban neighborhood like Country Plaza area outside of downtown than what Indy has outside of it's downtown but between both downtowns it's fair game. Indy has a lot more within walking distance from the center of it's downtown compared to KC's. KC urban attractions are just too spread out for walking distance. In Indy I could walk to either a pub, ball game or a zoo but not in KC.
Quote:
StL is denser in all those ways than KC, but that doesn't mean it's better or cooler or that I like it more. There are a lot of denser, bigger, more urban cities than StL that I don't think are cooler or better than St Louis. What's more, I can think of plenty of places that are smaller or less densely populated or less developed than KC that I like better.
That's because St Louis is historically a much older developed city than INDY ,KC and Omaha which explains it's larger dense build up.
Yea, well there are a lot of people in the KC "region" than couldn't find Hyde Park on a map if their lives depended on it.
Here is a photo of Hyde Park.
Does Indy have areas like this several miles from downtown? The Plaza, Westport, Union Hill, UMKC, Volker, Valentine etc in addition to downtown.
Not to mention all the big warehouse districts, crown center etc.
That's why Indy is more urbanly centralized than KC and not having a lot of urban amenities so spread a part through out the area that you couldn't have them close enough in a more compact area within walking distance like Indy. You could have Country Plaza all the way out in Lees Summit for all I know but why so far out? That is nothing to brag about. I prefer to leave my car parked in one area if I can help it instead of driving all of the city for this and that when I can easily get it in one place.
Quote:
Downtown Indy abuts some dense single family house areas that are included in the downtown area as residents. That's why it has more "downtown" residents. But it's not as urban as KCMO is outside of the downtown financial district.
Sure as I pointed out KC like West Port has plenty of single family homes but so does Indy.
A lot of Indy folks here were really downplaying the importance of having strong areas that aren't downtown. KCMO's photos were evidence to the contrary.
From what I have been finding online even Omaha's midtown might be further along than Indy's. And KC Omaha's non downtown urban districts are thriving right now with no better public transportation than Indy.
And none of this is a slight to the city, its just a process. Broad Ripple looks like a great node. It looks like Indy is making progress in other areas, but all the master plans and videos I found are only 2 years old where Omaha has been working for the better part of a decade and KC even longer.
Well then I guess it evens out, right? Indy has really been working on its' neighborhoods over the last few years, but its' downtown has been booming for decades now.
Well then I guess it evens out, right? Indy has really been working on its' neighborhoods over the last few years, but its' downtown has been booming for decades now.
Not saying even necessarily, just important IMO maybe Omaha just works differently than Indy. Omaha has a really strong secondary business core in it's midtown as 3 Fortune 500s are all located along a 2 block stretch. And one of the companies just spent a quarter billion on a huge development on its old surface lots.
I just think it is pretty apparent no city will have the majority of it's residents living in their downtowns. Hence the importance of strong density through much of the city. The core is important, but radiating density is what creates the best cities.
The reason STL is dominating this poll isn't their downtown. It is their countless vibrant urban neighborhoods.
Not saying even necessarily, just important IMO maybe Omaha just works differently than Indy. Omaha has a really strong secondary business core in it's midtown as 3 Fortune 500s are all located along a 2 block stretch. And one of the companies just spent a quarter billion on a huge development on its old surface lots.
I just think it is pretty apparent no city will have the majority of it's residents living in their downtowns. Hence the importance of strong density through much of the city. The core is important, but radiating density is what creates the best cities.
The reason STL is dominating this poll isn't their downtown. It is their countless vibrant urban neighborhoods.
While that's all true, you're still missing my point, especially if you're really trying to compare Omaha to Indianapolis. I have nothing against Omaha, but there is simply no way it can compare to a metro area of basically 2 million people. Also, I'm simply trying to be logical. If you can agree that KC's neighborhoods are decades ahead of Indy's, and Indy's downtown is decades ahead of KC's, then I don't see how we can't agree that the cities are pretty much equal as both cities are making strives at improving their weaknesses.
And a strong core is very important to a region as a whole. When you have visitors come to your city, having a district that they don't ever have to leave to enjoy a multitude of entertainment options is extremely important. None of the other three cities in this poll have that. Not even St. Louis. This is especially important when public transportation sucks, as it does in both KC and Indy.
God, the way you post pictures and constantly hate on Indy seriously gets old. By the way, that area doesn't look to much larger than the Midtown area in Indianapolis. In fact, if Indianapolis ever invested in public transit on Meridian Street, that's probably a mirror image of what it would look like. So yes, there are high-rises outside of downtown Indianapolis.
When have I hated on Indy??? I'm only showing that KC's urban core is quite a bit more intense, built up and more dense than Indy's that's all.
And somebody replies comparing Downtown Indy with Wesport in KC to show how much more dense Indy is than KC! This is obviously going right over the Indy folks heads...
BTW, Downtown Indy is not "decades" ahead of downtown KC. The actual downtowns are comparable. KC just pulls away when you get beyond downtown.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
