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^ nice post, but you posted why Indy is comparable to KC, not why it's decades ahead of it.
Just to respond to your post. First off, you can find sources that put KCMO's downtown pop at 19-24k and that was back in 2010. If you want to use 19k, that's fine and not that it matters, but I think most will put it in the low 20's now, so again, comparable to Indy either way.
And you didn't just go and act like KC can't compare to indy when it comes to historic architecture did you? In that post you quoted, I just mentioned the NEW things that were built in KC recently and rather than understand that, you go and act like Downtown doesn't have historic structures to compliment them, most of which have been renovated recently. You have to be kidding me.
KCMO has some amazing art deco skyscrapers, some of which are now condo buildings. KC has several historic downtown theaters, one of the most amazing union stations in the country, a 1930's era arena with all kinds of history, a huge 1920's Library building and much more. The new Kauffman Center has been in all kids of architectural magazines and has been called one of the worlds finest modern performing arts venues by many already. You don't have to accept that, but the place is amazing and it should be since it cost 420 million to build.
While I will admit that Indy is a better convention city than KC (mainly due to hotels within walking distance), KC has put several hundred million into its convention center and it's now one of the nicer ones I have seen plus it has one of the largest ballrooms in the country.
KC is trying to get back into the convention business and needs hotels and transit to do it. Who knows if it will ever return to a 2nd tier convention city, but I think they are on their way to making a run at it.
More pics for you since I think many Indy folk need them !!!
That pop # came straight from the downtown council 2011 annual report located on the same sight you quoted your figures from.
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KCMO has some amazing art deco skyscrapers, some of which are now condo buildings. KC has several historic downtown theaters, one of the most amazing union stations in the country, a 1930's era arena with all kinds of history, a huge 1920's Library building and much more. The new Kauffman Center has been in all kids of architectural magazines and has been called one of the worlds finest modern performing arts venues by many already. You don't have to accept that, but the place is amazing and it should be since it cost 420 million to build.
Never said KC didn't have any interesting historic structures. Actually, no one has said that pro or con. The difference being certain people tend to act like every other place has stuff Indianapolis doesn't. The Central Library was completed in 1917, Murat in 1909 and Walker in 1927. Union Station (1853), first one in the world. Municipal is not Hinkle by any stretch which is probably why you referred to it as a 1930's arena and not Municipal Auditorium. No one said Kaufman wasn't nice, but come back in 20 years to see how it's stood the test of time.
^ I've never said anything negative about Indy. The only thing I said was that Indy's downtown is comparable to KC's downtown. It's not decades ahead of it or anything absurd like that. They are comparable. Indy may have a more historic arena, KC may have a more charming union station etc.
And because there is so much more to KC than Downtown compared to Indy, that's why KC comes out on top. The downtowns are comparable, but when you add in all the other urban districts, amusement parks, MLB > NBA etc, then KC comes out on top. It's not Chicago vs Peoria, but I think the city as a whole has more to offer outside of downtown while having a comparable downtown to Indy.
You are saying that KC and Indy are exactly the same while Indy has a much better downtown core than KC.
Been to Indy and St. Louis, never to KC or Omaha. Indianapolis has them all beat on bike trails- you can ride from downtown to way out past the loop. Unflippinbelievable! (The Katy Trail going through St. Charles is very extensive, and the Madison County trail is too, but Indy just seems to have a better connection from downtown to the more populous suburbs) I like St. Louis' downtown, but to me the Mississippi River just uglies up every city it run through. It's just a flat out ugly river. So I ended up enjoying the Indianpolis riverfront and trails a lot more. But the rest of STL downtown is nice. St. Louis has nice park space downtown as well, but I found Indianapolis' to be nicer with the incorporation of the museums and the Canal Walk.
In terms of if I had the same job offer in all 4 places, I would prefer Indianapolis also because St. Louis doesn't have much else I'd like to drive to, but Indy has Cincinnati in the vicinity and the Chicago drive isn't all that bad either. (Better weekend trips)
Kansas City seems like it would have more things to do (chiefs, royals, BBQ) , and the Overland Park area seems especially nice, but Omaha seems like it has a nicer downtown. In the end, I think Indy and St. Louis are close, with Indy edging it out, and KC and Omaha are close, with KC edging it out. All of them seem like fairly nice places to live.
Ok, I'm going to have to start attacking KC more now after two in a row with Indy posters, otherwise I'm going to get labeled an "Indy hater"...; but, I just can't let this one go...
1st bold (of this last section, please see above for others): First part not really, second part def.
2nd bold: Spend happy doesn't always go well... finance in the news, global economy, notice any similarities in top stories??? KC even backing the PL district could be used as a potential example, we'll see...
Finally, and again... great city does not simply mean great downtown... some cities are so great having so many things so close together would actually be a really, really big negative... Imagine that! I also like living in amazing urban neighborhoods that don't just consists of tourists wandering the streets from nearby hotels, carzy huh...
Sorry if this is too crass, been drinking...
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Hmmm.... My overall thought on this is mixed... On the one hand, despite visiting Indy over a dozen times I don't know all the details of current city projects/financing/economics/etc. This could be my ignorance of this very specific example showing, but way more likely you are taking a very volatile and unpredictable science and using it incorrectly as fact... Your ability to see into the future with your crystal ball here, and totally rule out an unlimited list of mitigating variables (yeah...only things with KC could affect this, nothing with Indy...) is a probable mix of current trends and pride that is almost comical. 24k now??? Hit 30k in 7 months, o def!!! Seriously, this is just a question that concerns one of many, many variables, but are all of these units being built reserved? Hmmm... and 20 years, that's a long time for you huh? I don't want to get into taxes too much as I really am not a fan of the field, but I am curious, what are you trying to say here?
Yes, buildings are being built (some from scratch, others refurb). DT sits at over 96% occupancy rate (which is considered full), with a housing shortfall NOT including students which makes it even worse as far as housing availability. Keep in mind, the city is right now only trying to reach it's 1980 census of 40k downtown residents so the housing stock is there and always been there. Just accounting for IUPUI students looking for apartments can push that over 30k just with the completion of CityWay and apartments currently under construction.
You being a visitor, why would you know what goes on in the day to day happenings? Well, I could have said 30 years which it truly is for continuous development downtown including going through two recessions and not missing a beat in it's sustained development. What I was getting at is Public/Private partnerships have been around since the 70's (Indianapolis) but hasn't started gaining mass traction in mainstream urban development until the 2000's. I would surmise that to traditional American work ethic and refusal to let other leach off of the taxpayers. Unfortunately, that has since shifted to tax dollars for every business that wants them. Anytime you do a public/private, you are taking a gamble with taxpayer money. Sometimes it works (Indiana Convention Center), sometimes it doesn't (old AA Maint Hub at IIA). Either way, it's a gamble that may or may not pay off. If you are a locale, not used to or savvy in that realm, it can get you. Case in point, P & L in KC. Does it have the potential to make good on its promise, sure, economy, people with more disposable income, most definitely. Right now, it appears to be off to a slower start than what people here proclaim, http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...Tabs%3Darticle. Obviously, doing this for 30 years, Indianapolis has failed more than once esp. when it's a project that leaves the taxpayers on the hook when the private part of the deal fails to deliver.
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Minus the house comment I can kinda agree somewhat; which is why I wonder why the heck you would bring something like this up to defend Indy. Age can be on St. Louis's side to a small extent, in US terms since it is older than the US, but really??? You want to bring age into a conversation about "world class" (don't use this phrase, I know you weren't first here but still....) in the US??? This is NOT our country's strong suit! Indy in particular, what???
It's pretty simple, KC brought up the entertainment district (P & L) and loves Kaufman. What I said about world class isn't the first time I've ever said that. Point being P & L is new and apparently thus far losing money. The Wholesale district in downtown Indianapolis, more established.
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1st bold (of this last section, please see above for others): First part not really, second part def.
2nd bold: Spend happy doesn't always go well... finance in the news, global economy, notice any similarities in top stories??? KC even backing the PL district could be used as a potential example, we'll see...
Finally, and again... great city does not simply mean great downtown... some cities are so great having so many things so close together would actually be a really, really big negative... Imagine that! I also like living in amazing urban neighborhoods that don't just consists of tourists wandering the streets from nearby hotels, carzy huh...
Sorry if this is too crass, been drinking...
Yes, cities tout the billions of dollars that is currently being "invested" to lure companies and business. KC, STL, Cle, Cin, CBus, Jax, Ind are all the same in that regard. No point in having the massive investment and not touting it. That would be poor marketing on your part. No spend happy does not always go well, look at Europe. The Olympics broke Greece and the old world is already socialistic in nature when it comes to spending where as traditionally the US has not been. This past decade has seen the US change from one of self reliance to tax payer subsidized everything.
Great downtowns do not always correlate to great cities, however, cities at least here in the US are judged by their downtowns as it is normally the financial center of any region and where decisions are made and tourist flock to. They tend to house historic structures, museums and other cultural amenities. To put it in perspective, no one gets awestruck looking at a picture or a post card of Chicago's north side. It may be a lure once you move to the area but show that same person a picture or postcard of downtown and the response will be completely different.
^ The bike trails, river walks etc in Indy are awesome and I would say they are 1-2 decades ahead of KC when it comes to that. I love the new bike lanes in downtown Indy.
As far as biking, I would rank it as Indy and StL tie because while Indy has some great urban trails, StL has katy, some great west county trails and other suburban trails, forest park etc. They are lacking in central city trails, but have awesome suburban trails and forest park and areas around it are great in midtown, but light rail cities are great for bikers because bikes work so well with light rail (vs heavy rail or no rail).
Omaha also has great urban trails along the Missouri River in both NE and IA as well as riverwalks etc and is a fun place to ride in the city, along the river or in the more suburban areas.
Then way down on the list I would say Kansas City. KC really drops the ball on recreation and that's sad because out of these four cities, it probably has the best urban topography and available green space/corridors to have one hell of a system. KC has some pretty nice suburban trails and a few urban ones, but the city really seems far behind compared to almost every city in the country when it comes to urban bike trails, bike lanes and utilizing urban green space in general. Most downtown parkland is un-used grass, most of the river fronts and river levees are off limits and the few actual parks and riverfront parks it has are so disconnected from the urban fabric and other green space that they are rarely used.
Been to Indy and St. Louis, never to KC or Omaha. Indianapolis has them all beat on bike trails- you can ride from downtown to way out past the loop. Unflippinbelievable! (The Katy Trail going through St. Charles is very extensive, and the Madison County trail is too, but Indy just seems to have a better connection from downtown to the more populous suburbs)\
If it matters Omaha and KC were recently ranked in the top 50 most bike friendly cities while Indy and STL weren't included.
The Cultural Trail is impressive, Omaha is using it as a template for a similar separated bike line being constructed next year, but I think that is a pretty big bicycling authority showing Omaha can hold its own in terms of bicycle amenities.
^ I've biked in all four cities and many other cities across the country. No way KC should be on that list. Any list like that should be taken with a grain of salt as they are generally created by people that have never been to the cities they are listing. That's why I never link to them.
^ I've never said anything negative about Indy. The only thing I said was that Indy's downtown is comparable to KC's downtown. It's not decades ahead of it or anything absurd like that. They are comparable. Indy may have a more historic arena, KC may have a more charming union station etc.
And because there is so much more to KC than Downtown compared to Indy, that's why KC comes out on top. The downtowns are comparable, but when you add in all the other urban districts, amusement parks, MLB > NBA etc, then KC comes out on top. It's not Chicago vs Peoria, but I think the city as a whole has more to offer outside of downtown while having a comparable downtown to Indy.
You are saying that KC and Indy are exactly the same while Indy has a much better downtown core than KC.
I think we need to agree to disagree
Well it's NBA > MLB. We've never agreed on much so that probably won't change. I like the lively debate and you come stronger than a lot. People do not normally talk about the urban districts in Indianapolis outside of Broad Ripple. One you start adding Butler-Tarkington (IMA on outskirts and BU as the heart), Meridian-Kessler (Home of the Govey Mansion), Fall Creek Place (IvyTech Main Campus and old refurbished St. Vincent Hospital), Fountain Square, Midtown (Home of Indianapolis Childrens Museum), Woodruff Place. Unknown places like Bates-Hendricks, Meridian Park, Herron-Morton, Holy Cross (Home of Angies List) and Cottage Home on top of the more known downtown neighborhoods, St. Joes, Fletcher, Ransom, Old Northside, Lockerbie, it stacks up better than you think.
I'm sure there are NBA fans out there that are more into NBA than MLB. But the fact is that NFL and MLB are by far the top two leagues in this country. I'm not really sure how that can even be debated. It also takes a larger market to support MLB than NBA. There are a lot of pretty small NBA markets, most of which could not support MLB and the teams move around a lot more in the NBA because 500 million dollar baseball stadiums are hard to come by and the top 30 markets where MLB can work are already pretty much taken.
The Royals in KC have sucked for a long time, but the city still averages 20k for weekday games and often 25-35k on weekends for 80 dates. Why? Because there is 2.6 million people within an hour of downtown and KC gets a lot of regional tourists beyond the local area.
Also, KC's MLS soccer team is drawing close to 20k a game and many consider MLS to be closing in to become the number 4 or 5 major league sport possibly overtaking NHL.
I enjoy the NHL and NBA, but I'm just being realistic. Is there a city that has both NBA and MLB that would give up MLB before NBA? I seriously doubt it. MLB brings in far more tourists and more exposure to a city than the NBA and therefore is a more important asset.
Plus 80 dates of potential entertainment vs 40 helps too.
Well it's NBA > MLB. We've never agreed on much so that probably won't change. I like the lively debate and you come stronger than a lot.
Me too. I think we are both in the same boat though as both KC and Indy are highly underrated cities nationally and I enjoy keeping them on people's radar. This thread being at the top has to annoy a lot of people that wouldn't give two thoughts to any of these four cities (which is stupid).
I worked in Chicago for a year and people would ask what "Kansas" was like (KC is always called Kansas without the "city" by people from other areas of the country for some bizarre reason) and they would say things like (it's bigger than Indianapolis at least right?) etc.
Indy seemed to be a city they would use to compare to a lot I guess because it's close. I would end up defending KC and Indy.
First I have to explain the whole MO/KS thing and try to get them to stop saying Kansas without the city (which is very annoying if you are from kcmo), then I have to say it's not the size of Peoia etc. The whole process is tiring and never ends. Same deal here in the DC area. People about fall over when I tell them that KC has over 2 million people. It's crazy.
I think Indy is in the same boat and you don't even have to deal with the Kansas stereotypes and confusion.
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