Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
And you know that this is still old covenant... not applicable to the new:
2 cor. 3:6; Jer. 31:33-40; and especially Hebrews 8.. " 8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. "
Quote:
2 Thess 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
What about verse 7? "and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels."
Yet you think this event has come and gone... don't you? So how do you apply that to now?
Quote:
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
John 12:47 "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it."
Quote:
Matt 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
A day that has already passed.. right?
Quote:
There is so much more...more so than anyone wants to come to grips with. Why is it so hard to swallow that God deals with the wicked in these ways. We cannot put ourselves in the place of God, or be it, understand why He does, but that it is His nature....it is what the scripture teaches over and over and over again, but yet UR can't swallow it, they reach outside of the scripture to help their carnal minds wrap around the nature of Him, when it is clear, that those mysteries of Him and the reasons for His judgements are His and are left to Him only...none other. What is so difficult here?
We have loved ones, that died and never believed, they are condemned. We can't grasp it, it hurts deep within us, but these are the providences of God, and they are left up to Him. It still hurts, I know...I am with all of you who have experienced this. I would rather their souls be completely destroyed than be in torment forever, but the scripture is plain about these things. We cannot avoid them, as much as we try to reach into our flesh and carnal minds to explain these things away, they are real, and according to God and His word, it is His justice, His government, and we are not in control of His decisions....they are left up to Him.
We should leave it at that, and just spread the gospel, instead of being in error, even slightly, and be judged harshly for preaching the errors.
I post the scripture, and the scripture is the last word. And what we define in the scripture, is defined in the scripture, and that is the last word. Not the interpretations of men, dictionaries, doctrines, and philosophers, but of God only, and His word.
And if He said forever, then it is forever.
You can't have it both ways.
God's kingdom is forever.
Eternal damnation is forever, whether they be destroyed or just damned, the punishment, is forever, whether they exist during that punishment eternity, or whether they are annihilated after, during or at its onset.
The act of His punishment is irreversable and forever.
And we have to accept that.
Our duty is to obey Him, none other, not question Him at all.
Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Matt 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. αἰών aiōn
Deal with it UR.
So you are ignoring the scripture and your own preterist viewpoint in order to continue to believe that infinite punishment will be given out to serve God's immense ego? Even though I showed your error in defining Justice... and even after showing you that with the preterist view in mind those verses you quote cannot mean what you say?
Then what is outside of the gates of the New Jerusalem, and why do they have no part in the book of Life?
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
The book of Life is the name's that are decreed to enter Heaven.
Those that accept Christ, walk in the light of the New Jerusalem, and live within the city gates of Christianity. Those outside of that, are NOT written in the book of life, and therefore, are NOT allowed into Heaven.......EVER. The scripture ends there. No redemption of the wicked....nothing...nada...zilch.
In Revelation 21:5 God makes everything new.. including the liar, defiler,.. etc. then verses 7-8 "He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.
So you see now that all men go through the second death.. the fiery lake of burning sulfur but those who overcome are not hurt by it...
So the ultimate purpose of the second death is to make everything new. That means that there is an emergence from the lake of burning sulfur... wouldn't you say? A refining of all men takes place? Some it hurts others it doesn't?
Then what is outside of the gates of the New Jerusalem, and why do they have no part in the book of Life?
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
The book of Life is the name's that are decreed to enter Heaven.
Those that accept Christ, walk in the light of the New Jerusalem, and live within the city gates of Christianity. Those outside of that, are NOT written in the book of life, and therefore, are NOT allowed into Heaven.......EVER. The scripture ends there. No redemption of the wicked....nothing...nada...zilch.
That verse is setting the condition on entering the City. That verse does not undo the two verses that came just before it stating that the gates of the city will remain open day & night to bring those outside the City into the Holy City.
1. The gates remain open day and night
2. To bring into the city the glory of the gentiles
3. Nothing unrighteous can enter the holy city
But what you are saying is
1. The gates remain open day and night
2. To bring into the city the glory of the gentiles
3. Nothing unrighteous can enter the holy city
4. Then the gates close forever
Belief in Jesus is often transferred to meaning good and unbelief means wicked - we are told that everyone is going to be judged on their works not belief, what is the point of judgement on works if it is belief in Jesus sacrifice that gets you into heaven?
Resurrection is life from death and to me in Revelation nowhere does it say that the dead are resurrected first then face judgement ------- it says the dead are judged and whatever is not in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death ------ Resurrection comes after death
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Notice that being raised is about spirit, incorruptible, glory and power
What I have noticed as well is that the word G2920 krisis seems to only be translated damnation when it relates to a supposed eternal hell and in most/all other cases is translated as judgement
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.{judgement}
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Concerning the OP, a few quotes from some early Church fathers, to be followed later by others when i have more time ..
Quote:
Clement of Alexandria lived from 150-213 A.D. He believed the "fire" to be an instrument of God leading to conversion, rather than the torturous "hellfire" doctrine embraced by the Egyptians. One writer describes it this way:
"The Egyptian "Hell" was particularly impressive and highly refined . . . Confinement and imprisonment played an important role. The tortures were bloody, and punishment by fire was frequent and terrifying . . . "
"From the Old Testament, Clement and Origen, both fathers of the early Christian church, took the notion that fire is a divine instrument, and from the New Testament the idea of baptism by fire (from the Gospels) and the idea of a purificatory trial (from Paul)." Jacques de Goff, The Birth of Purgatory, pg 19,20,53
In Clement's book, Stromata, he states plainly:
"God does not wreak vengeance, for vengeance is to return evil for evil, and God punishes only with an eye to the good." pg 7, 26.
Origen of Alexandria (180-253 A.D.), another early church father, teacher and author, was the first to write a systematic theological commentary on the whole Bible. In his book, Against Celsus IV, Origen writes:
"The Sacred Scripture does, indeed, call our God "a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29). . . As therefore, God is a consuming fire, what is it that is to be consumed by Him? We say it is wickedness, and whatever proceeds from it, such as is figuratively called "wood, hay, and stubble" (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) which denote the evil works of man. Our God is a consuming fire in this sense; and He shall come as a refiner's fire to purify rational nature from the alloy of wickedness and other impure matter which has adulterated the intellectual gold and silver; consuming whatever evil is admixed in all the soul."
Gregory of Nazianzus (329-389 A.D.) was ordained as a priest and pastored the church at Sasima, a village in Cappadocia. Later he was a bishop of Constantinople. He was so highly respected that, according to Robert Payne:
"Of all the Fathers of the Church, he was the only one to be granted after his death the title "Theologian," which until this time was reserved for an apostle - - John of Patmos." (The Fathers of the Eastern Church, p. 179).
Gregory's view of the fiery judgments is given in his book, Orat.XXXIX, 19:
"These (apostates), if they will, may go our way, which indeed is Christ's; but if not, let them go their own way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only very painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice."
Gregory of Nyassa (335-394 A.D.), another Church father, believed that "fire" was not literal, but for the cleansing of sin - - purification. In his book, Orat. In 1 Corinthians 15:28, he wrote:
"When all the alloy of evil that has been mixed up in the things that are, having been separated by the refining action of the cleansing fire, everything that was created by God shall have become such as it was at the beginning, when as yet it had not admitted evil. . ."
Claims are made by those who espouse the heresy of universal salvation, that the doctrine of eternal condemnation was not taught in the early church, but that it was a belief that arose later, with the Catholic Church. This is not true.
The early church fathers are categorized as: the apostolic fathers; the ante-Nicene church fathers; and the post-Nicene church fathers.
The apostolic church fathers were those who were contemporaries of the Apostles and carried on the teaching of the Apostles. These church leaders taught eternal condemnation in the lake of fire, long before the establishment of the Catholic church. Following are some quotations from some of the writings of some of early church fathers, and afterwards, some links for further information will be provided. I have only used quotations from no later than than about 189 A.D.
It should be pointed out that what matters is what the Bible teaches about the eternal lake of fire. Not what the church at any time in history says about it. But as it turns out, the early church is in agreement with the Bible.
(Exact dates may be subject to debate, but are close.)
Ignatius of Antioch (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2, [110 A.D.]) ''Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire, and so will anyone who listens to him.
Clement of Rome (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D.150]) ''If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest, but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment.''
(Second Clement 8:4) ''So also let us, while we are in this world, repent with our whole heart of the evil things which we have done in the flesh, that we may be saved by the Lord, while we have yet time for repentance.''
(Second Clement 8:5) ''After we have gone out of the world, no further power of confessing or repenting will belong to us.'' (In other words, Clement is saying that you must make the decision to believe in Christ while you are alive on this earth.)
Justin Martyr (First Apology 12 [150 A.D]) ''No more is it possible for the evil doer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of Fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments.''
Justin Martyr (First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII [150 A.D.]) ''And we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment, and not only as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if anyone say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of any harm.'' (Justin is clear in stating that the punishment is eternal and not for a temporary amount of time.)
Justin Martyr (First Apology of Justin, Chap. XXVIII [150 A.D.]) ''For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold.''
Irenaeus of Lyons (Against Heresies, 4:28:2 [189 A.D]) ''The penalty increases for those who do not believe the word of God and despise his coming. It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomever the Lor shall say,'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,'' they will be damned forever.'' (Notice the reference to Matthew 25:41)
I have used only a few of the early church leaders as evidence of the early churches teaching of eternal condemnation. There are more, such as; Polycarp (155 A.D.); Athenagoras (177 A.D.); Theophilus of Antioch (181 A.D.); Mathetes (160 A.D.)
What Did the Early Christians Believe About Hell? (http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/index/what_Did_the_Early_Christians_Believe_About_Hell - broken link)
The claims of universalists that the Catholic church originated the teaching of eternal condemnation are shown to be false. From the beginning of the church, eternal condemnation was taught in accordance with the Word of God, as shown by the very quotations of the church fathers themselves.
Understand this. Universal reconciliation is NOT universal salvation. Christ died for all, but many will reject the offer of salvation. Reconciliation simply means that Christ died for every single sin that will ever be commited in the human race. He paid the penalty for every last sin that will ever be committed. That means that sin is not an issue in aqquiring salvation, and sin is not an issue in maintaining salvation. But where the barrier of sin once stood between God and man, there is now an open door to salvation through which whosoever may walk through faith in Christ. God requires a volitional decision to believe in Christ as the condition for salvation. And as mentioned by Clement of Rome, (refer to the above quotation), that decision must be made this side of death.
Excellent post Mike!! Sorry I missed this one and I can see it was a "hit" with the uni's. You're so right.....eternal torment was, is and always will be scriptural and part of God's plan, like it or not. All the scripture twisting in the world cannot change that we have to accept Christ NOW, while we are still alive, if we want to spend eternity with Him.
All the scripture twisting in the world cannot change that we have to accept Christ NOW, while we are still alive, if we want to spend eternity with Him.
All the twisting of the scripture will never change the fact that it was Christ that accepted us and not the other way round.
Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. Romans 15 : 7
This is a great lesson for christianity to learn , because once it learns it, it may well be humble enough to reach the lost with the same love that accepted itself , instead of behaving as if they were never been found wanting itself.
All the twisting of the scripture will never change the fact that it was Christ that accepted us and not the other way round.
Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. Romans 15 : 7
This is a great lesson for christianity to learn , because once it learns it, it may well be humble enough to reach the lost with the same love that accepted itself , instead of behaving as if they were never been found wanting itself.
AMEN! Well said, pcamps. The exclusivists and those who would be "special" need to be brought into the light of God's truth and love for us ALL!.
All the twisting of the scripture will never change the fact that it was Christ that accepted us and not the other way round.
Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. Romans 15 : 7
This is a great lesson for christianity to learn , because once it learns it, it may well be humble enough to reach the lost with the same love that accepted itself , instead of behaving as if they were never been found wanting itself.
Amen....why is this such a hard concept for people to understand???
Amen....why is this such a hard concept for people to understand???
The answer to why is pretty evident id say, at least in many cases, such as in the case of people who defend the doctrine of ET so vigorously. It is because many Christians who believe the way the Ilene does are misanthropes. And they believe God, like them, is a misanthrope ...
What ever a person believes in their heart becomes them and is reflected in what they believe about God. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and unfortunately many Christians, being misanthropes, hope that eternal torment is true, so they believe it is true.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 12-17-2009 at 11:39 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You're so right.....eternal torment was, is and always will be scriptural and part of God's plan, like it or not. All the scripture twisting in the world cannot change that we have to accept Christ NOW, while we are still alive, if we want to spend eternity with Him.
