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And the majority of them, other than your UR doctrinal fathers, believed it not.....and the ones you chose to exemplify your case, either renounced their UR paradigm, or they were kicked out of the church.
Maybe you should evaluate your errored view again.
If you want to present the case that they did believe, you HAVE to support it with scripture, otherwise your claim is as black as the RCC and their inquisitions..
When men stand in error, go back to the scripture and see what it says.
This, you have not done, but instead you have thrown stones with New Age Jargon and rhetoric wrapped up neatly in a newly packaged claim, that is redundant and in error, and will once again, be eliminated from the church once and for all.
I have provided evidences for everything I have written. You have provided nothing but your black accusations and rhetoric. You can call me a new ager and an heretic and whatever else you think will convince me or anyone that what you are saying is true, but you are really just showing that you are filled with condemnation and spiritual abuse and violence. You use double speak by saying out of one side of your mouth that we are all brothers, and then you turn around and say that i am a new ager for believing what most of the early Christians believed in the first place even before the doctrine of eternal damnation was ever the normative orthodox teaching of the gospel by the Roman Catholics, and because that is what i see in the scriptures for myself and am convicted in my heart to believe. You also claim that i have an elementary understanding of scritpures when i Have been studying scripture all my life, and im no spring chicken.
You agree that the Roman Catholic church was/is pagan, but not their belief in hell or eternal Torment which we have proven derived from pagan religions. More double standards ...
Until you have evidences for what you claim instead of just saying it and expecting people to believe you because you think yourself so obviously consistent and reputable () ... You really shouldn't say anything at all.
I'm not afraid of you, or of you false religion, or of your false concepts of God, or of your hollow threats of eternal evil and everlasting pain and suffering in some mythical hell. My God is Loving and true, and his judgments are righteous and are for the purpose of correcting those that are judged and not for their punitive torment ... And my God has been in my life working miracles and delivering me opportunities to share his love and my understanding of his glory with people all over the world. I know God is with me, and i know the spirit is in me and works through me, that's all the evidence i need to believe as I do, though i have plenty more in history and in the scriptures to bare it out to the end.
By the way, it is your erroneous belief in hell that is now being found out for what it is, and it is your false doctrine of eternal torment that is being wiped out of the church even as we speak ... More and more people are coming to a knowledge of this truth and all the power that people like you have over others because of this false doctrine is swirling down the drain. Just look at the numbers of believers that come here to city-data proclaim the true Gospel of which i am a party to ... More and more everyday ... Our numbers are swelling! Indeed, God is separating the wheat from the tares ...
We are tired of your threats and we are tired of your spiritual violence that you and those like you perpetrate on the world ... Nothing you can say or do can stop the tide that is rising against you, and praise God for that.
Though i am, at this moment, against you because of your false religion(as true religion that is acceptable unto God is loving your enemies and helping others, not threatening them with violence to get them to do or believe what you want them to), i am confident that the lord almighty God will one day renew your heart and bring you around to understanding the truth in his own good time. Nevertheless i am for you and your salvation and your healing of mind and spirit in Christ even as i am for all people regardless of color or creed or measure of sin.
You have provided me, or anyone else here nothing in the scripture that says the soul and spirit will redeemed after death. That is what I ask for.
What you have provided, and I agree with you completely, that Christ paid the ransom for all men, a gift, bestowed onto those who believe in Him, but the scripture says nothing of that redemption after man has shed his corruptible body, unless He has been regenerated in his ἄνθρωπος life.
God bless you too Ironmaw.
I wonder why you throw accusations at me concerning my view on what happens afer life on this earth, which I have repeatedly said, that I adhere to none of them...ET or UR. If I were to side with anything at this point, it is the complete dissolve of the human spirit for those that have rejected Christ. This is called the annihilation view, which is, IMO, in direct harmony with the scripture. As in Sodom and Gomorrah, it was annihilated, and only smoke rising up from the pre-existant presence of that city was left, thus purifying the land from where it stood.
And that city was no more. Just like the valley of γέεννα Christ preached:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Seems to me, that the scripture is plain in its figurative language when referencing to Hell, as in this valley where bodies were burned and destroyed, so will the final destination point for the wicked.
You have provided me, or anyone else here nothing in the scripture that says the soul and spirit will redeemed after death. That is what I ask for.
What you have provided, and I agree with you completely, that Christ paid the ransom for all men, a gift, bestowed onto those who believe in Him, but the scripture says nothing of that redemption after man has shed his corruptible body, unless He has been regenerated in his ἄνθρωπος life.
God bless you too Ironmaw.
I wonder why you throw accusations at me concerning my view on what happens afer life on this earth, which I have repeatedly said, that I adhere to none of them...ET or UR. If I were to side with anything at this point, it is the complete dissolve of the human spirit for those that have rejected Christ. This is called the annihilation view, which is, IMO, in direct harmony with the scripture. As in Sodom and Gomorrah, it was annihilated, and only smoke rising up from the pre-existant presence of that city was left, thus purifying the land from where it stood.
And that city was no more. Just like the valley of γέεννα Christ preached:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Seems to me, that the scripture is plain in its figurative language when referencing to Hell, as in this valley where bodies were burned and destroyed, so will the final destination point for the wicked.
And BTW....I thought you didn't drink anymore
1Pe 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Why would i not drink? Did i ever say that i didn't drink? I don't drink every day, maybe one or twice every two weeks ... I don't drink excessively, but i enjoy a little buz now and then. Especially when playing pool as it help me relax and shoot a little better. I must admit that i have had a few binges in the past couple of years, which i am not proud of (when i say binge i mean drinking for a couple of days) ... When i was trying to blow a fuse for some reason or another ... I am not by any means what some might call a "good Christian" ... I don't do the whole abstinent thing, except where sexuality is concerned that is ... I drink , spit, cuss, dance, smoke, etc ... I am regular guy, not some pious do-gooder who is always worrying about sinning. I just try to maintain some measure of moderation and not to be a bad influence on people with little faith. Im not a preacher or what have you who has to worry about what me congregation thinks of me ... I'm just me, that's all. And i try to enjoy myself now and again without being under condemnation.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-28-2009 at 11:59 AM..
1Pe 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Already happened Ironmaw.
This happened when Christ descended into Hades.
James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison
Christ gave those in Hades a chance to receive the gospel.
Nice try, but remember who you are dealing with here.
Why would i not drink? Did i ever say that i didn't drink? I don't drink every day, maybe one or twice every two weeks ... I don't drink excessively, but i enjoy a little buz now and then. Especially when playing pool as it help me relax and shoot a little better. I must admit that i have had a few binges in the past couple of years, which i am not proud of (when i say binge i mean drinking for a couple of days) ... When i was trying to blow a fuse for some reason or another ... I am not by any means what some might call a "good Christian" ... I don't do the whole abstinent thing, except where sexuality is concerned that is ... I drink , spit, cuss, dance, smoke, etc ... I am regular guy, not some pious do-gooder who is always worrying about sinning. I just try to maintain some measure of moderation and not to be a bad influence on people with little faith. Im not a preacher or what have you who has to worry about what me congregation thinks of me ... I'm just me, that's all. And i try to enjoy myself now and again without being under condemnation.
That's alright...I thought I remembered you saying once that you used to party alot, went down a deep dark hole, but stopped. My fault and apologies for assuming so.
Further, Justin Martyr made it clear that eternal condemnation is eternal and not temporary as Plato had claimed. Read the post
as far as I know, Justin Martyr believed in annihilation, he further rejected the immortality of the soul and as far as I know he did not believe in the trinity, which makes him a heretic according to the current dogma.
Quote:
A.D. 140-166. JUSTIN MARTYR. This celebrated personage was a Grecian philosopher, and the first professed Christian scholar whose writings have come down to us. He was converted some thirty or forty years after the death of St. John, and entered zealously into the advocacy of the new religion, having presented two apologies, or elaborate defenses, one to the Emperor Antoninus Pius, A.D. 150; and the other to Marcus Antoninus, his successor, A.D. 162. His learning and reputation gave him a prominent place and great influence among the Christians, though he lacked judgment, was credulous, and often exceedingly absurd in his interpretation of Scripture. He suffered martyrdom at Rome about A.D. 166, and hence he is called Justin Martyr.
His conversion did not destroy his individuality, nor entirely redeem him from the bondage of the past. He retained many of his early heathen notions, and the dress and profession of a Platonic philosopher; and in some respects his creed was a sad mixture of Pagan falsehoods with Christian truths.
With regard to the subject of our inquiry, he uses the following language: "Every one is stepping forward into everlasting misery or happiness, according to his works." "Moreover we say that the souls of the wicked, being reunited to the same bodies, shall be consigned over to eternal torments, and not, as Plato will have it, to the period of a thousand years only." "Satan, with all his hosts of angels and men like himself, shall be thrust into fire, there to be tormented world without end, as our Christ hath foretold."
These passages are strongly phrased, and might be taken as evidence that Justin believed in endless punishment, if there was nothing in his writings to conflict with them. The contrast between the "thousand years" of Plato and the "eternal torments" believed by the Christians of his time, would seem to indicate that "eternal" was to be taken in the sense of absolute eternity. Still it was not, evidently, so intended; for Justin did not believe in endless torments, but in the final annihilation of the wicked, as the following will show: "Souls are not immortal," says he..."I do not say that all souls will die. Those of the pious will remain (after death) in a certain better place, and those of the unholy and wicked in a worse, all expecting the time of judgment. In this manner, those which are worthy to appear before God never die; but the others are tormented so long as God wills that they should exist and be tormented. Whatever does or ever will exist in dependence on the will of God, is of a perishable nature, and can be annihilated so as to exist no longer. God alone is self-existent, and by his own nature imperishable, and therefore he is God; but all other things are begotten and corruptible. For which reason souls (of the wicked) both suffer punishment and die."
This shows us that Justin believed that the punishment of the wicked after death, which he describes by the terms "eternal," "world without end," etc., - and which he contrasts with the Platonic thousand years in a way significant of endless, - after all, terminated in annihilation, and was not, therefore, endless. Nothing, I think, can more conclusively demonstrate the uncertainty of all these forms of expression, or illustrate more forcibly the latitude of their use, and the futility of attempting to build upon them the doctrine of absolutely endless punishment.
Already happened Ironmaw.
This happened when Christ descended into Hades.
James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison
Christ gave those in Hades a chance to receive the gospel.
Nice try, but remember who you are dealing with here.
I provided a scripture which shows people who have died can still be saved ... That is what you asked for, that is what i gave, whether or not you believe it can happen again, doesn't concern me, only that it has happened and nothing in the bible says that it doesn't still happen or will not happen again, which of course as you know i believe that it will, so that every knee bows to Christ and every tongue confesses that Christ is their lord and swears an oath of fealty to him and become subjects of his reign ...
I know who i am dealing with Sciotamicks, someone who refuses to accept anything I offer as evidence for what i believe, but that is okay, i am not trying to convince you of these truths, only God can do that. It is others who are reading what i am writing that God is convincing of this truth. You merely provide as an antagonist to my ministry so that i needs must fully elaborate and miss no detail so that everyone's questions are answered accordingly. I imagine that there is assuredly a reason for you non-belief, if for nothing other than to make those of us here who are teaching universal reconciliation make sure we cover all the bases ...
That's alright...I thought I remembered you saying once that you used to party alot, went down a deep dark hole, but stopped. My fault and apologies for assuming so.
LOL ... Oh i used to party like no other and did indeed go down into a dark pit of regret, but the kind of partying i did then was far beyond the scope of my casually drinking now ...
as far as I know, Justin Martyr believed in annihilation, he further rejected the immortality of the soul and as far as I know he did not believe in the trinity, which makes him a heretic according to the current dogma.
I made mention of these facts concerning Justin Martyrs beliefs according to his various writings on the issue earlier in the thread as well ... It just goes to show that even in the early days of Christendom there were People who flip flopped back and forth from one moment to the next concerning what they believed about the judgments of the wicked and unbelieving to come, just as we can see in this thread and in others that there are still people around in our time who do the same ...
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison
Christ gave those in Hades a chance to receive the gospel...
This is becoming more interesting
According to your beliefs, what happens to infants that die during birth, or shortly thereafter?
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) ... You really shouldn't say anything at all. 
