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I Already did a thread on 1 Tim. 4:10. It has nothing to do with universal salvation. Christ died for all, so that those who believe in Him will be saved. Salvation is conditional on faith in Christ. Paul did not teach universalism.
Where does it say that in scripture . . . that it is CONDITIONAL on belief. Also . . . if you can . . . explain what God gets from or why He would require it from us. Why is belief so important . . . especially if it has NO REQUIRED IMPACT on anything else. It seems rather trivial to me to require something so easy to accept. Help us out Mike . . . what is the big deal about belief and faith that makes it THE requirement and ONLY thing that matters for salvation?
Where does it say that in scripture . . . that it is CONDITIONAL on belief. Also . . . if you can . . . explain what God gets from or why He would require it from us. Why is belief so important . . . especially if it has NO REQUIRED IMPACT on anything else. It seems rather trivial to me to require something so easy to accept. Help us out Mike . . . what is the big deal about belief and faith that makes it THE requirement and ONLY thing that matters for salvation?
John 1:12; John 3:16; John 3:18; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 8:24; John 11:26; John 14:6 John 20:31; Acts 4:12; Acts 13:38-39; Acts 16:31; Romans 4:5; 1 Corinthians 1:18-21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 3:9; 1 John 5:9-13.
Faith is the means by which a person adjusts to the justice of God resulting in eternal salvation.
Faith is the means by which the believer appropriates the work that Christ did on the Cross in providing salvation for sinful man. Faith-trust-believing in Christ is the condition which God requires from man in receiving the offer of salvation. God made salvation possible, He offers it to whosoever desires it. God requires that each individual member of the human race make a volitional decision to accept the gift that God offers. God wants everyone to be saved, but anyone who is saved must want to have an eternal relationship with God. It is all about free will on the part of man. God wants us to have an eternal relationship with Him. The issue is; do YOU (Whosoever) want to have an eternal relationship with God. If you (whosoever) does, then as Jesus said '' ...I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.'' There is no merit in faith and man gets no credit for faith. The merit is in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ.
Salvation is offered to all, but it is conditional on the part of anyone who would be saved to WANT to be saved. And that means putting your trust in Christ. Expressing to God the desire to be saved through faith in Christ.
Once a person understands the issue in salvation and expresses to God the desire to be saved through faith in Christ, then and only then does God impute to that person His very own righteousness and eternal life thus qualifying that person to live in the presence of God forever.
Whenever anyone believes in Christ for eternal salvation, God is glorified.
Last edited by Michael Way; 02-16-2010 at 09:28 PM..
Mike, Gehenna can't be the eternal lake of fire because for one, Gehenna is not even being used at this time so how can it be eternal?
Secondly, Gehenna is used only during the 1000 year reign of Christ. Then, at the end of the 1000 years the earth is destroyed along with Gehenna and then the lake of fire comes about.
Thirdly, Matthew 25:46 does not say "eternal fire."
(Concordant Literal Version) And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
(1912 Weymouth New Testament) "And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."
(1898 Young's Literal Translation) And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
και . . .απελευσονται . . . . . . . ουτοι . .εις
and . . shall be coming away . . .these . into
κολασιν . αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον
chastening eonian . but the just into life eonian
Fourthly, the lake of fire is for the eons of the eons whereas Gehenna is just eonian or pertaining to that 1000 year eon.
It seems to me as if you were following the vain teachings of men, and that you value the words of David Guzik, John MacArthur and Adam Clarke more than the words of Paul himself, I have never heard these names and I do not care what they say what that verse does mean or not mean.
This verse is as plain as simple, God is the savior of all men, NOT ONLY - but especially of believers, therefore God is ALSO the savior of EVERYBODY else, which actually only make sense if He actually will save all men.
I think your vain attempt to undermine the witness of the bible concerning the salvation of all has been refuted in that thread.
Further I think the claim has been refuted that the Early Church taught endless torment, they were maybe not all universalists, but they all seem to have believed in a final and utter annihilation of evil, either by the annihilation of sinners or by their reformation to holyness.
To teach the eternity of evil is heresy and a bad blasphemy in my conviction, I do not know of any early churchfather who hold to the modern view of hell, which was made popular by Augustine.
I came across this statement in another forum, it is not wise to quote the church fathers out of context, also the universalists among them (Origen e.g.) taught "everlasting punishment", yet with "everlasting" (Gr. aiónios) they did not mean "endless" punishment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOtW
My suggestion is to read exactly what these fathers of the church view of soteriology (actually thoughts on salvation)
Ignatius of Antioch regarded salvation as one being free from the powerful fear of death and thus to bravely face martyrdom. He also believed that the Eucharist (bread and wine) was actually the literal flesh and blood of Jesus Christ and what he called, "Medicine of Immortality" and those who did not participate in it, were lost and dying in their sins even if they were martyred for their belief in Christ.
Remember what Ignatius thought salvation was, he thought it was being free from the fear of death and looking forward to a bloody and gruesome martyring. So when he says, "Corrupter's of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
It is a completely different picture than what even mainstream Christianity teaches. According to Ignatius, the unquenchable fire is the fear of death.
Who were these corrupters?
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1
Or was he talking about those who prevented the martyrs?
"I am writing to all the Churches and I enjoin all, that I am dying willingly for God's sake, if only you do not prevent it. I beg you, do not do me an untimely kindness. Allow me to be eaten by the beasts, which are my way of reaching to God. I am God's wheat, and I am to be ground by the teeth of wild beasts, so that I may become the pure bread of Christ." — Letter to the Romans
It is one thing to use an early church father as an appeal to authority in regards to what you believe, but I highly doubt many who use Ignatius for their defense of perpetual punishment in fact even agree with him concerning salvation.
Mike, Gehenna can't be the eternal lake of fire because for one, Gehenna is not even being used at this time so how can it be eternal?
Matthew 25:41 ''eternal fire''
Quote:
Secondly, Gehenna is used only during the 1000 year reign of Christ. Then, at the end of the 1000 years the earth is destroyed along with Gehenna and then the lake of fire comes about.
Satan is thrown into the eternal lake of fire which is the place referred to by the word Gehenna at the end of the Millennium to begin his eternal sentence. The same is true for unbelieving humanity. At the end of the Millennium they stand before Christ at the Great White Throne judgment and are then cast into the lake of fire forever. Revelation 10:11-15.
Quote:
Thirdly, Matthew 25:46 does not say "eternal fire."
(Concordant Literal Version) And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
(1912 Weymouth New Testament) "And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."
(1898 Young's Literal Translation) And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
και . . .απελευσονται . . . . . . . ουτοι . .εις
and . . shall be coming away . . .these . into
κολασιν . αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον
chastening eonian . but the just into life eonian
I think your vain attempt to undermine the witness of the bible concerning the salvation of all has been refuted in that thread.
Further I think the claim has been refuted that the Early Church taught endless torment, they were maybe not all universalists, but they all seem to have believed in a final and utter annihilation of evil, either by the annihilation of sinners or by their reformation to holyness.
To teach the eternity of evil is heresy and a bad blasphemy in my conviction, I do not know of any early churchfather who hold to the modern view of hell, which was made popular by Augustine.
I came across this statement in another forum, it is not wise to quote the church fathers out of context, also the universalists among them (Origen e.g.) taught "everlasting punishment", yet with "everlasting" (Gr. aiónios) they did not mean "endless" punishment.
John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish but have eternal life.
1 Tim. 4:10 ''...we have fixed our hope on the living God who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.''
The parallels between the two passages are unmistakable. Christ died for all so that whosoever believes in Christ will be saved. Those who don't believe are lost forever as the Bible repeatedly says.
John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish but have eternal life.
1 Tim. 4:10 ''...we have fixed our hope on the living God who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.''
The parallels between the two passages are unmistakable. Christ died for all so that whosoever believes in Christ will be saved. Those who don't believe are lost forever as the Bible repeatedly says.
Christ died for all so that some could be saved?
How about what it really says:
All men are saved... believers have eternal life.
eternal life does not equal saved and saved does not equal eternal life.
The apostolic church fathers were those who were contemporaries of the Apostles and carried on the teaching of the Apostles.
Who decides this?
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