The Early Church Fathers Did Not Believe In Universal Salvation (preach, translation)
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Yes, the eventual loosening of the perdition to which they are yet bound and by which they are so enamored ...
Oh that's good then .
I am ashamed of that gospel i put my faith in , but i do know the Lord used it in my life to bring me to where i am now, to faith in a gospel that i am not ashamed of , the Good news that He's the Savior of All !!!!!!!!!!!!
What it boils down to is that you are fighting for your own position of power and greedily defending your own professed self-righteousness and personal salvation. You are teaching the false gospel of eternal evil and death, the gospel of hell in order to safe guard the elite position you believe you have earned for yourself ...
I defend the scripture brother...where you cannot support your view with.
Quote:
I am fighting for the broken and downtrodden, who have been beaten and tormented by the false gospel you and those like you have perpetrated on the world in order to magnify yourselves above others. I am fighting for the sick and the lost, and those who have been abandoned by you false prophets for co many centuries.
Luke 14:11
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted ...
Your high mind and proud and hard heart will be humbled. And your false Gospel is being found out ...
No one is exalting anything here but the words of scripture. You are exalting your premise and view to push what is contrary to the scripture.
You and your view will be abased.
God is great, but He is also just. This is something you seem to fail in understanding. You can't support your theory, or the UR paradigm with scripture alone, which bears the fruit of it all. So be it.
I defend the scripture brother...where you cannot support your view with.
No one is exalting anything here but the words of scripture. You are exalting your premise and view to push what is contrary to the scripture.
You and your view will be abased.
God is great, but He is also just. This is something you seem to fail in understanding. You can't support your theory, or the UR paradigm with scripture alone, which bears the fruit of it all. So be it.
There are ten times as many scriptures that make reference to the eventual salvation of all mankind when compared to the few that ET'ers use to prove their false doctrine.
The proof is in the pudding ...
The false doctrine of Eternal torment, like Satan, is infinitely violent and hateful and condemns most humanity for ever. Those who believe it have hardened hearts towards every human alive who is not a christian and believe that they are all destined to be tortured for ever. Believers in ET make God out to be a tyrannical sadistic monster who creates most of humanity for the purpose of torturing them forever. They also believe that sin and evil and suffering and the works of the devil will exist forever and have power over most of Gods creation for eternity.
The doctrine of UR, like Christ, is loving and forgiving and full of mercy without end. Those who believe it have tender hearts towards all humanity. We love our neighbors and enemies as ourselves and believe everyone, especially Christians, will eventually be reconciled to God in the end. Believers in UR teach that God is both willing and able to save all of his creation from sin and death, and is not willing to allow any to be lost for ever. We Teach that sin and death and evil and all the works of the devil will be completely destroyed and will no longer exist in any part of Gods creation once all is said and done.
It is obvious which one is Good news for mankind, and which one is the greatest nightmare ever conceived of by human beings.
Your bad news teaches that most will be lost and evil will be victorious over the vast majority of Gods creation, while we teach that God is 110% victorious in Christ over evil and that sin and death will ultimately have no victory at all.
You teach everlasting evil through fear ... We teach complete victory of good through love ...
There are ten times as many scriptures that make reference to the eventual salvation of all mankind when compared to the few that ET'ers use to prove their false doctrine.
Where, and I will bet you I can dismantly the teaching you are promoting...once again.
Quote:
The proof is in the pudding ...
It appears you are eating sour pudding
Quote:
The false doctrine of Eternal torment, like Satan, is infinitely violent and hateful and condemns most humanity for ever. Those who believe it have hardened hearts towards every human alive who is not a christian and believe that they are all destined to be tortured for ever. Believers in ET make God out to be a tyrannical sadistic monster who creates most of humanity for the purpose of torturing them forever. They also believe that sin and evil and suffering and the works of the devil will exist forever and have power over most of Gods creation for eternity.
Rhetoric at its best. Let's see what our God has done to man in the past that disobeyed him:
Lev 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
There are so many other places in scripture that denote His justice.
God is love, but if you disobey Him these things happen.
Ironmaw, your interpretation is faulty and in error, full of rhetoric, and contrary to His nature. He is love yes, but He is also just.
Where, and I will bet you I can dismantly the teaching you are promoting...once again.
It appears you are eating sour pudding
Rhetoric at its best. Let's see what our God has done to man in the past that disobeyed him:
Lev 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
There are so many other places in scripture that denote His justice.
God is love, but if you disobey Him these things happen.
Ironmaw, your interpretation is faulty and in error, full of rhetoric, and contrary to His nature. He is love yes, but He is also just.
Get with the program.
So fire devours people and they die.. how in the world does that prove God tortures people after death... sound to me like they died... not that they died and went to hell... how do you use that verse to prove eternal damnation? Seem like you are reading into that verse a bit.
Where, and I will bet you I can dismantly the teaching you are promoting...once again.
It appears you are eating sour pudding
Rhetoric at its best. Let's see what our God has done to man in the past that disobeyed him:
Lev 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
There are so many other places in scripture that denote His justice.
God is love, but if you disobey Him these things happen.
Ironmaw, your interpretation is faulty and in error, full of rhetoric, and contrary to His nature. He is love yes, but He is also just.
Get with the program.
I want nothing to do with your programing ... Been there, done that, bought the bumper sticker and burned it when i came to understand the truth.
Its funny how you guys believe that love and justice are mutually exclusive ... You know what you get when you cross justice with love? Remedial correction via tender Mercies ... How can one be truly just without being merciful? The Justice of men is eye for an eye, the justice of Christ is turn the other cheek.
If you had a child, and that child for what ever reasons had become wicked, and you had within your power the ability to change them and make them righteous, would you do it? Or would you deny your child who you love your power to change them and instead cause them to suffer everlasting recompense? Is it justice that God allows evil and unbelieving people to remain in bondage to their carnal natures when he has the power to change them and release them from that bondage? Knowing that God created evil, and that he hardens the hearts of men and allows them to be subjected to vanity and deceptions when he has the power to bring them to the truth and make them understand and repent, do you believe its justice that he withholds his power of change from men and instead he chooses to torment them for ever for the hardness which he put in their hearts?
Rom 8:20-21
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Now does that mean whom God hardens he will not show mercy? Not at all, look at Nebuchadnezzar and Paul, they were hardened at first, and then he had mercy on them ... And look at Israel, God hardened them and blinded their eyes, but he will have mercy on them as well ... I have heard time and again you people say after death Gods hands are tied and can no longer save anyone ... But look at Jonah ... after Jonah died for rebelling against God, the lord had mercy on him and then resurrected him out of the belly of the fish and used him to prophesy to Nineveh. Or do you believe that Jonah is burning in eternal fire right now?
When we ask for a verse that states the power of Gods mercy ends at the death of a person, the only passage i have ever heard anyone quote was ...
Hbr 9:27
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment ...
However this says nothing about God not being able or willing to have mercy on someone after they die ... Or even after they are judged, what if Gods judgment is to have mercy?
We know this is a general rule but it obviously doesn't always apply either, for Jonah died once and did not face judgment but was resurrected and must have died a second time, and what about Lazarus, and the little Girl whom Christ resurrected? These instances go to show how this verse misinterpreted in order to prove an invalid concept.
The fact is God always has mercy after he judges, as was the case for Israel throughout the old testament and and will be in the future, and the sins of Israel were greater than the sins of Sodom(Eze 16:48) ... Even the cities of Sodom and her sisters will be re-established according to ...
Eze 16:55
And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before.
So God will show mercy and restore to them what they were before he judged them with "eternal fire" ...
You people need to deprogram your minds, and wake up to what is the true will of the almighty God, who will have all people come to a knowledge of the truth and repent, and be saved.
So Ironmaw...you are proclaiming that we, who believe in this doctrine, are not saved?
You had better repent solely just for that comment, because you will surely be judged by your statements. Also, what does the parable of the wheat and tares signify?
They grow together before the end of the age, tares first bound up and burned, and the wheat gathered AFTER the tares are burned.
You produce for me, scripture that says, the souls of the wicked, will be redeemed.
Do it now, without any input from the doctrine of your UR scholars. I want scripture only.
Without any comments from you, or anyone else. Do it now. I don't care how long it takes.
The fact is God always has mercy after he judges, as was the case for Israel throughout the old testament and and will be in the future, and the sins of Israel were greater than the sins of Sodom(Eze 16:48) ... Even the cities of Sodom and her sisters will be re-established according to ...
Eze 16:55
And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before.
So God will show mercy and restore to them what they were before he judged them with "eternal fire" ...
This is a perfect example of misinterpreting the scripture at its finest to promote the false doctrine of UR.
Have you any clue to what this former estate is?
This is about the covenant Israel had broken with God, and that restoration was done under Christ. This has nothing to do with the resoration of a soul, a wicked soul at that, being redeemed after their judgement. Sodom and Gomorrah, its unholy inhabitants were judged and burned, and the restoration being spoke of here is that of Israel, the True Israel, under Christ, Jew and Gentile alike, the people of the world, given the option to be restored spiritually under Christ. Sodom itself was not so restored - Jer 20:16, but Ammon and Moab, her representatives, as sprung from Lot, the righteous one, who dwelt in Sodom, were -Jer 48:47 and 49:6, probably most of the ten tribes and the adjoining nations, Ammon and Moab, were in part restored under Cyrus, but the full realization of the restoration was yet future to them and the heathen nations to be brought to Christ were being typified by "Sodom," whose sins they now reproduce - Deut 32:32.
In the 16th chapter of Ezekiel, God's is dealing with the Jewish nation, and their conduct and attitude towards him, here are described, and their punishment and judgement through the surrounding nations, even those they most trusted in.
This chapter is revealed under the parable of an exposed infant - Eze 16:3 - rescued from death, educated, espoused, and richly provided for, but afterwards they are guilty of the most abandoned conduct and attitude, rightly and justly punished for it. At last they are received into favor under Christ, and ashamed of her base conduct.
We are not to judge of these expressions by modern ideas of UR or any other paradigm, but by those of the times and places in which they were used - Hermeneutics 101, where many of them would not sound as they do to us. The design of this parable was to raise hatred to idolatry, and such a parable in this chapter was well suited for that very purpose only and alone.
Get it right Ironmaw, your doctrine is in serious error, as it always has been, and will always be. The people who deny the gospel after hearing it, will suffer the consequences, and justly so, because that is the nature of our God. They deny His Son.
This is a perfect example of misinterpreting the scripture at its finest to promote the false doctrine of UR.
Have you any clue to what this former estate is?
This is about the covenant Israel had broken with God, and that restoration was done under Christ. This has nothing to do with the resoration of a soul, a wicked soul at that, being redeemed after their judgement. Sodom and Gomorrah, its unholy inhabitants were judged and burned, and the restoration being spoke of here is that of Israel, the True Israel, under Christ, Jew and Gentile alike, the people of the world, given the option to be restored spiritually under Christ. Sodom itself was not so restored - Jer 20:16, but Ammon and Moab, her representatives, as sprung from Lot, the righteous one, who dwelt in Sodom, were -Jer 48:47 and 49:6, probably most of the ten tribes and the adjoining nations, Ammon and Moab, were in part restored under Cyrus, but the full realization of the restoration was yet future to them and the heathen nations to be brought to Christ were being typified by "Sodom," whose sins they now reproduce - Deut 32:32.
In the 16th chapter of Ezekiel, God's is dealing with the Jewish nation, and their conduct and attitude towards him, here are described, and their punishment and judgement through the surrounding nations, even those they most trusted in.
This chapter is revealed under the parable of an exposed infant - Eze 16:3 - rescued from death, educated, espoused, and richly provided for, but afterwards they are guilty of the most abandoned conduct and attitude, rightly and justly punished for it. At last they are received into favor under Christ, and ashamed of her base conduct.
We are not to judge of these expressions by modern ideas of UR or any other paradigm, but by those of the times and places in which they were used - Hermeneutics 101, where many of them would not sound as they do to us. The design of this parable was to raise hatred to idolatry, and such a parable in this chapter was well suited for that very purpose only and alone.
Get it right Ironmaw, your doctrine is in serious error, as it always has been, and will always be. The people who deny the gospel after hearing it, will suffer the consequences, and justly so, because that is the nature of our God. They deny His Son.
I always find it interesting how you make up stuff as you go along in order to defend both your full preterist and eternal torment traditions.
I also think it is interesting how you full preterists believe God didn't foresee the rest of the future of mankind after the fall of the temple in 70 AD, or that he just chose to quit speaking to mankind about what would come in the future.
In my opinion you are in denial of reality ...
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