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I'm starting this thread based on a question from Thrillobyte on another thread (so as not to derail the other thread). Scripture tells us about those who will rule with a "Rod of Iron".
Look at these verses that speak about the elect (the elect are God's chosen few out of the many called, the firstfruits):
1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Rev 2:26
and he who is overcoming, and who is keeping unto the end my works, I will give to him authority over the nations,
27and he shall rule them with a rod of iron -- as the vessels of the potter they shall be broken -- as I also have received from my Father;
Rev 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with arodofiron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Psalm 2:8
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
1 Corinthians 6:2-3
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Don't you realize that we will judge angels?
1 Peter 4:13
Instead, be very glad--because these trials will make you partners with Christ in his suffering, and afterward you will have the wonderful joy of sharing his glory when it is displayed to all the world.
Philippians 3:13-15
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Not everyone is going to inherit the reign of the Kingdom. But those few who do have a very high calling. Read this for an honest study on the topic:
Lego, I read through the link, not word by word but close enough to see some of the points being made by the author. I am still confused as to how UR works for the unchosen. That they will not suffer eternal torment I understand, but where will their place be in the kingdom of God? I understand the unchosen, the ones not called to be "high priests" of God will not be reigning, so what will they be doing exactly throughout eternity? What duties will they have as subjects in the kingdom? How will their time be occupied as the eons pass? Will they receive mansions in His Father's house as Jesus promised the apostles? Could you please elaborate? Thanks much, as I respect your thoughts and opinions very much.
First, to clarify some terms. Scripture speaks of "many called, but few chosen".
The few chosen = the elect.
The many called (but not chosen) = non-elect.
Everyone else (non believers) = also non-elect and not chosen.
So we can see it is possible that many in the church right now are not even among the few chosen. They are only part of the many called. Many are deceived.
So in the previous post we see that the few chosen (the elect) will be "ruling with a rod of iron" over the non-elect. What does this mean?
You have a good question Thrillobyte: what will the subjects be "doing"?
Personally, I don't have it all figured out (I don't think anyone does), but according to scripture they will be broken into shards as pottery is. Their wills will be subjected completely to God.
Consider this. Three "stages" of God's plan:
1. Christ came to do the will of the Father. Christ was broken on the cross. His will was already completely at one with the Father's.
2. Next, we have the elect (the firstfruits). The elect are those who inherit the reign of the Kingdom. Only those who overcome (overcome sin) and those who do the will of the Father will inherit the reign. In order for this to happen, their self-will must be broken so that they can be subjected to the Father. 2 Tim 2:12 If we endure hardship, we will reign with him. That hardship is the process of being broken to truly follow the will of Christ.
3. Finally, we have everyone else: the non-chosen, non-elect. They too must also have their wills broken. That is what Christ will do, through the elect, during the Kingdom reign. The non-elect will be broken, so that their wills will also be brought into line with Christ and the Father. Just like everyone else.
As you can see, no one is saved without have their wills changed into the will of the Father. It happens for everyone, each in their own order. In the end, all will be subjected to God and God will be all in all. Read 1 Cor 15:22-28 again until it makes sense.
Let it sink in and then reread it again in a couple days.
This part of the article is worth highlighting:
--
God is looking for a few good "Poimen"
Paul recognized that the future would be a revelation of his Lord's fiery justice, perfect love, temperance, persistence, and ultimate forgiveness through Christ and His body. To him, as with the other apostles, this was good news worth suffering, enduring and dying for, that through the separation, and division, and judgment not one soul would be irreclaimable.
This rule, received by "the overcomer" the one who is faithful to Christ is very important to the world. In fact, if it was not for the inheritors of God's reign, the world would not be eventually saved. This is because God has chosen them to be the vessel by through which he works. With a rod of iron they will break the nations.
Are you ready for an amazing truth? God is raising up the few that He chooses, for an awesome purpose. Take a look at the words below as defined by Strong's Dictionary:
poimen
Of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively): - shepherd, pastor.
poimaino
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.
Act 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed(poimaino) the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
John 21:16
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jona, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed(poimaino) my sheep.
Ephesians 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, PASTORS(poimen) and teachers;
Many Christians are already aware of the duties given to the church's pastors. A pastor's duty is to feed and nurture Christ's followers as a shepherd would. In fact, the word "pastor" comes from the Greek word "poimen" which means "shepherd." And interestingly, the English word "pastor" itself has Latin roots in the word "pasture" which makes perfect sense as a pasture is where shepherds do their work. That's their office.
But this pastoring, this nurturing and feeding duty, to the Body of Christ is actually training for an even bigger more awesome "high calling" to come:
Revelation 2:26-27
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I (Jesus) give power over the nations: And he shall rule (POIMANO) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Did you know Jesus was "broken to shivers" by his Father? And as Jesus was "broken to shivers" by His Father, the nations will be "broken to shivers" by Christ's followers. The Father gave the rod to the Good Shepherd (Jesus) to guide and break his "few chosen" into humility. Jesus then gives this shepherd's rod to those overcomers, that they may break the nations.
The word "poimano" means to rule...but as a shepherd rules over a flock, a shepherd who feeds them. The duty of "poimano" given to the church (in pastoring the Body of Christ) is the same "poimano" given to the overcomer over the nations.
Revelation 2:26-27
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I (Jesus) give power over the nations: And he shall rule (POIMANO) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
So now we can see how the elect will be "ruling" over the non-elect.
This is the important point and may help answer your question Thrillobyte!
As seen in the previous post (from the article), the word "rule" has meanings of "to shepherd, to feed, to supply the requisites for the soul's need". Check blueletterbible.org for the definitons if you want.
This means the elect will be "feeding and nourishing the lost non-elect"! They will be the kings, judges, priests and ministers that will help bring the non-elect into the Kingdom (as subjects) so that their wills be in line with God. When that is done, the elect themselves will become subjects (all are subject to God).
Another important point. I realize maybe I didn't answer this in your question...
The Kingdom reign of the elect ruling over the non-elect does not last forever. It only lasts until the eon(s) are done. Then all are subjected to God. At that point no one will rule except for God, and all will just do the will of the Father (God is all in all). It will be glorious for "elect" and "non-elect" alike - IMHO I don't think there will be any more "elect/non-elect" distinction at this point.
How long these eon(s) will last is anybody's guess.
Regarding "getting your mansion" - not sure - its definitely not talking about physical mansions. Probably referring to a relationship with God, but I am not sure.
Does the Bible give any indication as to what will be going on in the Kingdom when the eons end, Jesus lays aside His role as Saviour, and all become subjects to God when He is "all in all"? Has our duty ended and we just go through eternity in a state of paradise praising the Father, and will the earth and the galaxies still be here in a perfected state? I realize you don't have answers to all of this but I'm interested in what you think will be, as your feelings may be Spirit-inspired, whether you're aware of it or not.
First, to clarify some terms. Scripture speaks of "many called, but few chosen".
The few chosen = the elect.
The many called (but not chosen) = non-elect.
Everyone else (non believers) = also non-elect and not chosen.
So we can see it is possible that many in the church right now are not even among the few chosen. They are only part of the many called. Many are deceived.
Just a few holes to be addressed.... Do all the instances where the word "churches" is found in the bible apply to all churches for all times or simply to the ones addressed in the books they are found in?
Quote:
Consider this. Three "stages" of God's plan:
1. Christ came to do the will of the Father. Christ was broken on the cross. His will was already completely at one with the Father's.
Ok, kinda following.
Quote:
2. Next, we have the elect (the firstfruits). The elect are those who inherit the reign of the Kingdom. Only those who overcome (overcome sin) and those who do the will of the Father will inherit the reign. In order for this to happen, their self-will must be broken so that they can be subjected to the Father. 2 Tim 2:12 If we endure hardship, we will reign with him. That hardship is the process of being broken to truly follow the will of Christ.
So when 2 Timothy was written Paul was in prison writing a letter to Timothy.... We can assume from the first verse that Timothy was a real person living then. So is Paul talking about you? Me? or was he talking about the hardships then? compare to Rev. 14:4 you will see that the firstfruits are blameless, pure... etc. That Paul was writing to you and I about hardships and reigning with christ in the same sentence shows that there is no reason to think that anyone now will be reigning. How can you take something obviously in the past and apply it to the future?
Quote:
3. Finally, we have everyone else: the non-chosen, non-elect. They too must also have their wills broken. That is what Christ will do, through the elect, during the Kingdom reign. The non-elect will be broken, so that their wills will also be brought into line with Christ and the Father. Just like everyone else.
As you can see, no one is saved without have their wills changed into the will of the Father. It happens for everyone, each in their own order. In the end, all will be subjected to God and God will be all in all. Read 1 Cor 15:22-28 again until it makes sense.
Read 1 Cor 15:30 "And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?" Who was in a situation that they endangered themselves every hour? YOU? Me? How is any of this in the future? Help me understand why you think this way. Thanks
Does the Bible give any indication as to what will be going on in the Kingdom when the eons end, Jesus lays aside His role as Saviour, and all become subjects to God when He is "all in all"? Has our duty ended and we just go through eternity in a state of paradise praising the Father, and will the earth and the galaxies still be here in a perfected state? I realize you don't have answers to all of this but I'm interested in what you think will be, as your feelings may be Spirit-inspired, whether you're aware of it or not.
Very good questions! Although I'd say if anyone can answer them, don't believe them.
My simple theory... nothing happens.
The bible's teaches that its own teachings weren't meant for after death. Matt 22:32, Mark 12:27, Luke 20:38, The sadducees asked a question about the resurrection and what came after. Jesus said God is the God of the living not the dead.
God's word helps you in this life to make for yourself a better life. Not a better death. When you are dead, you are dead.
Does the Bible give any indication as to what will be going on in the Kingdom when the eons end, Jesus lays aside His role as Saviour, and all become subjects to God when He is "all in all"? Has our duty ended and we just go through eternity in a state of paradise praising the Father, and will the earth and the galaxies still be here in a perfected state? I realize you don't have answers to all of this but I'm interested in what you think will be, as your feelings may be Spirit-inspired, whether you're aware of it or not.
Yes that's a good question, and I don't think anyone has an answer. I think there may be a few clues in scripture, but nothing too specific.
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be noend. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.
This seems to indicate the Kingdom will keep increasing without end.
I imagine there will always be new things for us to learn, as we will still be finite beings (I think) - with God being infinite, there will always be some new facet to be revealed and understood. Just speculation on my part. So I don't think we will get bored in heaven!
Just a few holes to be addressed.... Do all the instances where the word "churches" is found in the bible apply to all churches for all times or simply to the ones addressed in the books they are found in?
Ok, kinda following.
So when 2 Timothy was written Paul was in prison writing a letter to Timothy.... We can assume from the first verse that Timothy was a real person living then. So is Paul talking about you? Me? or was he talking about the hardships then? compare to Rev. 14:4 you will see that the firstfruits are blameless, pure... etc. That Paul was writing to you and I about hardships and reigning with christ in the same sentence shows that there is no reason to think that anyone now will be reigning. How can you take something obviously in the past and apply it to the future?
Read 1 Cor 15:30 "And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?" Who was in a situation that they endangered themselves every hour? YOU? Me? How is any of this in the future? Help me understand why you think this way. Thanks
You are a preterist? I haven't studied that view as much.
Do you think Revelations is all past? Do you think all prophecy has been fullfillied? I don't see it that way. Revelations is the revelation of Jesus Christ, who was, is, and will be. It is for the past, present and future.
I believe all scripture is for our admonition, in each generation it is applicable.
You are a preterist? I haven't studied that view as much.
Do you think Revelations is all past? Do you think all prophecy has been fullfillied? I don't see it that way. Revelations is the revelation of Jesus Christ, who was, is, and will be. It is for the past, present and future.
I believe all scripture is for our admonition, in each generation it is applicable.
JMHO.
I am preterist in belief. I believe all admonition scripture is for our benefit and is applicable in every generation. I believe historical scripture (scripture talking about things of that day and age) does not have a double meaning. Churches THEN were persecuted therefore it was important for THEM to be reminded to have faith and keep watch. Events soon to come, came to THEM and don't apply to our generation.
20 different scriptures state "this generation"... what does "this generation" mean to you?
Matt 23:36 "I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation."
and again
Matt 24:34 "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."
You can decide for yourself, I don't believe it affects your practice of the bible.... but your understanding of some of the passages may be blurred by the belief in a future coming.. IMO.
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