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Hey kat, I, like lego, believe in some of the preterist views. I notice you said that you are not sure if we have consciousness after death, and that all of Christ teachings concerned us now in this present age or while we are physically alive now on this earth. I wanted to get your thoughts on the following verse and what it means to you. Thanks.
Matthew 22: 30 for in the rising again they do not marry, nor are they given in marriage, but are as messengers of God in heaven.
Well, I can say for sure that tons of interpretations of other scripture come from this passage so it has been chopped to pieces. I can see why it causes confusion. I will say that I don't believe there is a dual meaning in this scripture passage. By that I mean, that I don't think Jesus was trying to teach about angels or marriage.
So, that said...
It is clear, by all the verses before this and in chapter 21 that Jesus did not like the current temple leadership and that they had failed to see the purpose of the temple. Obviously the pharisees and sadducees were not pleased!
So the passage has the leaders of the temple, pharisee and sadducee as being confronted then they in turn try to confront Jesus...
Then in 22:23 the verse states that it is the Sadducees that are the ones who don't believe in the resurrection. All others at that time believed in a earthly body resurrection. None understood the spiritual aspect that we are changed to a likeness of God, in the incorruptible. Physical being corruptible, spiritual incorruptible.
They ask a question of marriage according to the law of Moses. They infer that the law of Moses is used to interpret the resurrection. In essence they are mocking him trying to trip him up.
Looking at: Matthew 24:38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,"
Marrying and marriage are earthly things. Now we can understand that the resurrection is not earthly, it is spiritual. Either before physical death or after... it is still spiritual. Therefore they did not understand the concept that God is the God of the living not the dead. In other words, God deals with those that are living and the things that are of the earth are gone after death.
He is saying that the resurrected body has no earthly ties or attributes.. so what good would marriage do? The physical raised as spiritual... have no need of marriage!
Does that make sense? This is why I don't see a need for consciousness after death. God makes it clear that He is concerned for the living... not the dead. That doesn't mean that he stops caring about people that are dead or that I believe we just all cease to exist. He just doesn't elaborate.
I would say that Jesus was pretty sarcastic when dealing with the questions of the leaders at that time. He had little tolerance for them and used facetiousness to show their error to others since they themselves were blind.
They did not understand, but apparently the crowd did:
33When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.
This is why I don't see a need for consciousness after death.
This is your confusion . . . consciousness is ALL that you are. The physical body and brain are merely the earthly production factory for your consciousness . . . which is YOU.
Kat . . . so close . . . but no cigar, IMO. This is your confusion . . . consciousness is ALL that you are. The physical body and brain are merely the earthly production factory for your consciousness . . . which is YOU.
Let me clarify:
In the context of bible teachings about consciousness after death... I see no need for one to be conscious.... but as I said before; the dead are pretty silent. So I can't really say one way or another.
And... yes I agree with you. I am not my body or mind... I am my consciousness.
I am not my body or mind... I am my consciousness.
So when we die the physical death and are no longer conscious, then you believe we cease to exist? In other words,once we live out our lives on this earth,whether it be 90 years or 9 years, that`s it?
If we are our consciousness and you believe we may not be conscious after this life,then we perish. I`m just trying to understand your belief. I`m always interested in other points of view. I know you say you are not sure, but you think that is a possibility?Thanks.
So when we die the physical death and are no longer conscious, then you believe we cease to exist? In other words,once we live out our lives on this earth,whether it be 90 years or 9 years, that`s it?
If we are our consciousness and you believe we may not be conscious after this life,then we perish. I`m just trying to understand your belief. I`m always interested in other points of view. I know you say you are not sure, but you think that is a possibility?Thanks.
No, I specifically stated in that long winded post that I don't believe we cease to exist. I cannot say what happens. The bible doesn't seem to elaborate on it so I don't find myself wondering about it too much.
In my mind it is as if our consciousness returns to the great consciousness that it came from... however.. that type of language usually scares people. I've also described it as energy returning to the sun.
Do I believe we are conscious of what is happening? Well... people who've had a NDE often are conscious of it and can remember it... others never noticed they had died and were brought back.
So I can't rightly say one way or the other what will be after death. I prefer to stay silent and be counted wise than open my mouth and be proven a fool .
No, I specifically stated in that long winded post that I don't believe we cease to exist. I cannot say what happens. The bible doesn't seem to elaborate on it so I don't find myself wondering about it too much.
In my mind it is as if our consciousness returns to the great consciousness that it came from... however.. that type of language usually scares people. I've also described it as energy returning to the sun.
Do I believe we are conscious of what is happening? Well... people who've had a NDE often are conscious of it and can remember it... others never noticed they had died and were brought back.
So I can't rightly say one way or the other what will be after death. I prefer to stay silent and be counted wise than open my mouth and be proven a fool .
I guess, the confusing part of what you are saying is..you don`t think we cease to exist...But....you believe consciousness is who we are and you don`t think we need consciousness after death. So, if consciousness is who we are and you think we may not be conscious after death, then doesn`t that correlate into not existing?
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
. I am not my body or mind... I am my consciousness.
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
I just don't know why you would need to be conscious and experiencing it.
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
? This is why I don't see a need for consciousness after death.
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
No, I specifically stated in that long winded post that I don't believe we cease to exist.
I guess, the confusing part of what you are saying is..you don`t think we cease to exist...But....you believe consciousness is who we are and you don`t think we need consciousness after death. So, if consciousness is who we are and you think we may not be conscious after death, then doesn`t that correlate into not existing?
Like I said, it's one of those things I'm just speculating about. Will we be conscious of things of this life after death? I don't know.
Will we be conscious of where we are after death? I really don't know.
But you are right... it would be like ceasing to exist. I can't even imagine what it would be like. Perhaps its like when you dream...
I worked in a hospital for a while and saw a man die during a procedure. A code was called and when I got there, they were attempting to revive him. It is certainly painful to have CPR, let me tell you! But as soon as the monitor started bleeping again he started asking the doctor why the doctor was just standing there... was the procedure over? Well, the doctor explained what was happening and in the middle of the man's reply he coded again. They again revived him and he started talking as if he had never stopped. This happened once more. Then they failed to revive him.
It was sad, but it was also eerie. His thought process seem to have paused when his heart stopped, then resumed once his heart started beating. He had no recollection of having died. I use the word died loosely because technically he hadn't at that point.
But then again some have NDE's in just the few minutes of death they experience.
I nearly drowned once. I had no flashbacks, just the sinking feeling that I would die and that was it. No more family, no more anything. I wasn't resigned to death at all but it made me think of what would have come had I died. And it made me think of life as more precious. Not to be wasted.
So I really don't know what happens. All I know is that our time here is short and I want to experience everything... who knows what comes next.
It is all supposition, whether you think of heaven as a castle with gates and a moat or as a collection of spirits.
Like I said, it's one of those things I'm just speculating about. Will we be conscious of things of this life after death? I don't know.
Will we be conscious of where we are after death? I really don't know.
But you are right... it would be like ceasing to exist. I can't even imagine what it would be like. Perhaps its like when you dream...
I worked in a hospital for a while and saw a man die during a procedure. A code was called and when I got there, they were attempting to revive him. It is certainly painful to have CPR, let me tell you! But as soon as the monitor started bleeping again he started asking the doctor why the doctor was just standing there... was the procedure over? Well, the doctor explained what was happening and in the middle of the man's reply he coded again. They again revived him and he started talking as if he had never stopped. This happened once more. Then they failed to revive him.
It was sad, but it was also eerie. His thought process seem to have paused when his heart stopped, then resumed once his heart started beating. He had no recollection of having died. I use the word died loosely because technically he hadn't at that point.
But then again some have NDE's in just the few minutes of death they experience.
I nearly drowned once. I had no flashbacks, just the sinking feeling that I would die and that was it. No more family, no more anything. I wasn't resigned to death at all but it made me think of what would have come had I died. And it made me think of life as more precious. Not to be wasted.
So I really don't know what happens. All I know is that our time here is short and I want to experience everything... who knows what comes next.
It is all supposition, whether you think of heaven as a castle with gates and a moat or as a collection of spirits.
Something happens... That is all I'm sure about!
Thanks kat. I `ve always been interseted in NDE. It is intriguing that some seem to have out of body experiences and others don`t remember anything. I read a book once about it. An emergency room doctor set up experiments in hospitals rooms where patients were terminal. He placed cameras and items near the ceiling. Places where the person would have to be actually above the room near the ceiling to see them. He thought some NDE`s, where people would recall things that went on in the room, may have been from remembering what the doctor looked like or just not totally gone so they could still hear. But some people actually mentioned items that were hidden near the ceiling. They could have only have seen it from above. One guy mentioned an item that the doctor put out high on the ledge outside of the room. Another recalled what his family was doing and saying at their house miles away. I tend to believe that when you die, you cease until the resurrection,spiritually. It could be right after you die. When a person dies, they are outside of time. So I`m giving some considerable thought to the idea that everyone`s resurrection happens at their death. For example, when I die, it will be the resurrection for everyone, even the people who are still alive. I will see people that haven`t died yet being resurrected because I will be outside of time.
It`s like our memories can take us back in time but our bodies can`t go. Our mind can take us to another place in time but we are stuck in our bodies which are bound in time.
I`m not really sure what to make of NDE experiences. It just seems strange that some people don`t have them while others do. Like the doctor who wrote that book on NDE experiences. How could those people have seen and described items that could not be seen from the hospital bed? But others didn`t remember anything. I find death and life after death a very interesting topic.
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