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I am preterist in belief. I believe all admonition scripture is for our benefit and is applicable in every generation. I believe historical scripture (scripture talking about things of that day and age) does not have a double meaning. Churches THEN were persecuted therefore it was important for THEM to be reminded to have faith and keep watch. Events soon to come, came to THEM and don't apply to our generation.
20 different scriptures state "this generation"... what does "this generation" mean to you?
Matt 23:36 "I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation."
and again
Matt 24:34 "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."
You can decide for yourself, I don't believe it affects your practice of the bible.... but your understanding of some of the passages may be blurred by the belief in a future coming.. IMO.
Thanks for your input Kat. I actually "discovered" preterism about 10 years ago when I was trying to figure out what the rapture was all about. I couldn't really figure it out then - certain things just don't seem to fit, and I pretty much dropped studying it at that point. It was only in the recent past couple years that I have been studying the truth of God's salvation for all, so all of my study has been devoted to that: including explaining and understand every "eternal hellfire" verse down to the last detail so I can fully understand God's plan.
Currently, I have issues with preterism, but I am not really studying it, as I see it as more important to let others know about the real good news that all will be saved (even though most reject it).
Just curious Kat, what "type" of preterist are you? In my limited understanding, I believe there are different levels of pretersism. Some believe all scripture was fulfilled in 70 AD by the temple being destroyed. Some believe Christ has already come.
I may agree or disagree with some of this, but like I said, haven't studied it too much. I agree with you that the letters/etc were directed to churches of that time, but I disagree that they do not have meaning (possibly dual meaning) now.
Especially Revellations - it is the Rev of Jesus Christ who WAS, IS, and WILL BE, which to me indicates, past, present, and future applications to it all.
BTW I long ago discarded any idea of a pre-trib rapture though. I used to be really into the "Left Behind" books, which you probably have read/heard of.
Thanks for your input Kat. I actually "discovered" preterism about 10 years ago when I was trying to figure out what the rapture was all about. I couldn't really figure it out then - certain things just don't seem to fit, and I pretty much dropped studying it at that point. It was only in the recent past couple years that I have been studying the truth of God's salvation for all, so all of my study has been devoted to that: including explaining and understand every "eternal hellfire" verse down to the last detail so I can fully understand God's plan.
Currently, I have issues with preterism, but I am not really studying it, as I see it as more important to let others know about the real good news that all will be saved (even though most reject it).
I respect your beliefs though. Peace out.
I believe preterism and UR go hand in hand. UR are saved, period .
Seriously though, no need for Jesus to come back. It is done. That is why I studied the bible so intensely too. ET contradicted my experience with God. The rapture did as well. If we are all saved as was the purpose.. what is there left to do?
Anyway, I respect your beliefs as well but I hope you will still debate these things with me or against me (and others) because it increases our understanding.. I don't have all the answers and I get a lot wrong!
Just curious Kat, what "type" of preterist are you? In my limited understanding, I believe there are different levels of pretersism. Some believe all scripture was fulfilled in 70 AD by the temple being destroyed. Some believe Christ has already come.
I believe that all that Christ came to do is done. Sin is washed away by the Blood. All are saved. We have a great book that gives us insight into how life should be live. What purpose would it serve for Christ to return again?
Therefore, (and I use the elimination method of logic) if all is done... Christ must've come back when he said.. in that generation that had not passed away yet.
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I may agree or disagree with some of this, but like I said, haven't studied it too much. I agree with you that the letters/etc were directed to churches of that time, but I disagree that they do not have meaning (possibly dual meaning) now.
Well here is my thought. You and I both believe that all will come to Christ and be saved. Sin is abolished at christ's death and death is abolished at christ's resurrection. Therefore, the only thing left for Christ to do in coming back would be to put his enemies under his feet...
1 Kings 5:3 "You know that because of the wars waged against my father David from all sides, he could not build a temple for the Name of the Lord his God until the Lord put his enemies under his feet. "
In the new testament it is the Jews and Romans who are the enemy of Christ.. and the Romans were the vessel that destroyed the Temple in 70AD, so that a new "temple" was built in each of us. In the time the book of Hebrews was written it is said that all things are not "under his feet." They were still being persecuted. The temple still stood as a testament to the old covenant and old law of sacrifice for sins.
Hebrews 2: 8-9 and put everything under his feet." In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
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Especially Revellations - it is the Rev of Jesus Christ who WAS, IS, and WILL BE, which to me indicates, past, present, and future applications to it all.
BTW I long ago discarded any idea of a pre-trib rapture though. I used to be really into the "Left Behind" books, which you probably have read/heard of.
Revelations 20 gives a sort of timeline or summary of the book, Jesus reigns for 1000 years (has crown of glory as in Hebrews 2:9 above) then satan is loosed, and gathers the deceived. then Rev. 20:9. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
The city of 70AD is (to me) the city and temple of the old covenant/old law of sacrifice for sin.... Then we see death and hades destroyed and in Chapter 21 the new temple is built. That is my take on it.
I never followed the old covenant so the second coming really doesn't apply to me personally but it was important in separating the sacrifice of animals from the sacrifice of Christ for the understanding to them of redemption of sins.
And I babble some more.. I'm not sure I have made my point but it was worth a shot.
BTW- I enjoyed reading the Left Behind series. I also enjoyed the movies. Loved Kirk Cameron as a kid! I also enjoy reading Dean Koontz, C.S. Lewis, Dan Brown, and many others. Still all fiction, but well created characters and stories.
Very good questions! Although I'd say if anyone can answer them, don't believe them.
My simple theory... nothing happens.
The bible's teaches that its own teachings weren't meant for after death. Matt 22:32, Mark 12:27, Luke 20:38, The sadducees asked a question about the resurrection and what came after. Jesus said God is the God of the living not the dead.
God's word helps you in this life to make for yourself a better life. Not a better death. When you are dead, you are dead.
I didn't quite catch that, kat. What do you mean "when you're dead, you're dead"?
Yes that's a good question, and I don't think anyone has an answer. I think there may be a few clues in scripture, but nothing too specific.
Isaiah 9:7 1. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be noend. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.
This seems to indicate the Kingdom will keep increasing without end.
I imagine there will always be new things for us to learn, 2. as we will still be finite beings (I think) - with God being infinite, there will always be some new facet to be revealed and understood. Just speculation on my part. So I don't think we will get bored in heaven!
lego, could you elaborate a little on the two points I bolded?
1. how does this line up with Paul's "24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."[a] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
So at some point in eternity a BIG transition occurs as Jesus steps out of His role as Saviour after He has conquered all His enemies, the last being death, then He turns the whole kingdom over to His Father, suggesting that Jesus does NOT reign on David's throne forever.
2. In heaven how can we still be finite beings. If we possess the glorified body like Christ's, then we must become infinite as well, able to live forever, shouldn't we?
lego, could you elaborate a little on the two points I bolded?
1. how does this line up with Paul's "24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."[a] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
So at some point in eternity a BIG transition occurs as Jesus steps out of His role as Saviour after He has conquered all His enemies, the last being death, then He turns the whole kingdom over to His Father, suggesting that Jesus does NOT reign on David's throne forever.
Yes, that seems to be a contradiction, doesn't it? I scratched my head on that one too, but 1 Cor 15:25 is clear, Jesus reigns UNTIL death is defated.
I believe that Isaiah 9:7 is also mistranslated. The word for "forever" is the hebrew "owlam", which also has meanings similar to aion, meaning an age or finite time period. I can show you examples in the OT where "owlam" cannot possibly mean literally "forever" if you want.
Young's literal:
Isaiah 9:7 To the increase of the princely power, And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom, To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age, The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts doth this.
So the Kingdom carries on without end, but the reign ends after the age (finite time period).
Important note:
There are very few spots in the KJV family of bibles where "forever" actually means "forever". And when it does really mean "forever", it either says something like "without end" or is a different word than owlam/aion/aionios.
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2. In heaven how can we still be finite beings. If we possess the glorified body like Christ's, then we must become infinite as well, able to live forever, shouldn't we?
Good question. I don't really know. But if we were truly infinite, wouldn't we be "gods"? I don't think we will be equal to God. Our lifespan will be infinite, but other than that, who knows.
1. Under your view, what/where/when is the lake of fire? Is the lake of fire this life? Is the lake of fire something that happened at 70 A.D.?
IMO - The lake of fire is a spiritual fire. Remember that only death, hades and those not written in the book of life are found there according to Rev. 20. The other lake of fire shown has added sulfur...
Not sure of the difference but there seems to be one. We are changed by going through fire. Death loses its hold on us, as does sin. Whether this happens now, later, and/or when we physically die.. I don't know. Perhaps the sequence of events is dependant on the person.
However, I think it is a spiritual thing that aids in the perishable becoming imperishable so that all are able to enter into the kingdom. whether the kingdom be a literal heaven or a spiritual state while living. That I cannot say, nor, in my mind does the exact nature of the lake of fire matter much in the grand scheme of things.
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2. what/when/where is Jesus "millenial" reign? Is it right now or future? Is the Kingdom purely now?
IMO- I see in Rev 20 and 1 cor. 15. a timeline of things "to come". They seem to agree on the sequence. I think they were "to come" as opposed to are "to come" now.
The millenial reign comes before the city is surrounded but after the firstfruits/elect are raised to govern. I see the disciples, followers of Jesus in that time, as the firstfruits/elect. They judged/reigned over their peers.
The 1000 years are over then the city is surrounded.. this I equate to 70ad when the temple where sacrifice of animals was practiced was destroyed/desecrated. For nearly 3.5 years people were trapped in the city.. That had to have been awful! Talk about satan being loosed! Those that took part in the first resurrection (Rev 20) would not have had to endure it. Also, those that listened to Jesus and fled (matt 24 I believe) would have been properly warned and saved from it.
Then we come to the resurrection of the rest of the dead and the second death. and boom... right into the new heavens, new earth, and new city.
I believe these are all spiritual things happening. The exception would be the city that was actually distroyed but then it was foretold since Moses!
I don't have all the answers, but...
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3. How are we reigining/teaching/judging/ministering over the non-elect, when many non-elect are in positions of power in this life?
I don't think the elect is us in 2009. It was those who endured and were killed during the persecution of Jesus and his followers. The non-elect are just your average joe, jew and gentile.
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4. When do nonbelievers who die come to Christ and repent? Immediately at death? When does their judgment happen?
Well, now this is something I have heard others say about UR... I don't believe that it is the repentance that saves us but rather it is Christs blood that saves us. In other words, being repentant for one's sins produces actions of love. This applies to every life and makes for a good life to live. However, being repentant and believing do not save. The blood washed away the sins, not the repentantness or the belief.
Does that make sense?
So to me it is already done. You can live your life repentant of sin and changed here and now. or you are changed when confronted by the truth of the blood, the fire, ie Jesus upon death. I chose to be repentant and changed here and now because it makes a better life for me. Some are repentant and changed and have absolutely no belief in God. Does that mean I am more repentant to sin or changed? Does that mean my belief entitles me to something special? Don't know... I don't want to believe so.
Sin is sin. if you live your life to the best of your ability and temper everything with Love... who am I to challenge the blood of Christ's power over your eternal destiny? The truth still stands. The blood washes away the sin. IMHO
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Inquiring minds want to know! Thanks...
Hope that helped... I didn't get into too much scripture as I am pressed for time and you did ask for my opinion but later tonight I may be able to list the scripture that leads me to believe this way. If it is neccessary.
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I'm not sure I have made my point but it was worth a shot. 
