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I believe that the Holy Spirit is what destroys the Carnal nature.
Paul
So do I , but you indicated those with the carnal nature CANNOT recieve His Spirit, that would than mean babes in Christ who are carnal do not have His Spirit. And I disagree with that.
So do I , but you indicated those with the carnal nature CANNOT recieve His Spirit, that would than mean babes in Christ who are carnal do not have His Spirit. And I disagree with that.
The Carnal nature doesn't Receive it (Holy Spirit) of itself. The Holy Spirit is imparted by God as He wills.
I do to but not after the same fashion as you do, I don't beleive God moves my steps to sin and disobedience as so many seem to beleive.
Well, the fact is that the bible teaches clearly that God hardens mens hearts and causes them to err to make an example and to further his own agenda in the world.
3. All of Israel, on multiple occasions as John spoke concerning it(Jhn 12:40), and Isaia wrote ...
Isaiah 63:17
"O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance."
4. The ten Kings of revelation whom God puts it into their heart to give their power to the beast.(Rev 17:17)
6. The evil men who are associated with the fallen angels in the book of jude are said to be "before of old, ordained to this condemnation"(Jud 1:4)
We're told in different places tha God creates some vessels for honor and some for dishonor(2Ti 2:20,Rom 9:21) ...
These are just a few examples of Gods control in the lives of wicked men to the point that they should sin.
Bob Your analogy and you conclusion are at odds with each other, you say the child can choose what he will do, yet you maintain that the child could not choose to be obedient but had to chose death.
My analogy was about children choosing to explore or not. Do you believe that if a normal curious child will certainly spend much time exploring, that that child is not choosing to explore?
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You can’t have it both ways brother either the child had the choice and could choose life or death or he did not.You cannot say the child had the choice of life or death but could not choose life.
Making a choice does not require that one might maybe choose either option. I do not have to be capable of somehow forcing myself to prefer asparagus over lasagna to make a choice between the two.
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That has nothing to do with my reasoning.
Does God choose to tell the truth?
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Bob Adam was not unregenerated, he was a SON OF GOD, and he was not alone for the WORD walked daily with him, the same as He does with us.
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Therefore, Adam like us could have resisted the devil and he would have been turned to flight. Adam had a choice brother and it was a real choice between being obedient or to disobey. Were all natural men Bob, so by your understanding of that scripture no man can receive the Spirit of God. Yes Adam was strong enough, he was a SON OF GOD, and the WORD walked daily with him. Do sons of God have the law written in their hearts? Adam was a SON OF GOD, he was indeed circumcised.
I disagree about Adam being a son of God in the sense of being the same as one who is born again. He was a son of God in the same sense that Acts says we are all the offspring of God.
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By that reading Bob you break up the flow of the scriptures as verse 3 also says this day.
I assume you mean verse 2. The whole chapter is a warning to heed what Moses is commanding this day. Verses 1-11 are looking at what will take place should Israel disobey. Verses 1-2 supposes that Israel has already turned away. The curse is upon them, and they are comparing it to the blessing. They need to return to God and do what Moses is telling them this day. If they do, then God will gather them back and circumcize their heart. In contrast, verse 17 is back in the present since they have not turned away since it says "if thine heart turn away..."
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Are not Gods laws written in our hearts? Are you always obedient?
As I said before, it's a process. Christ is being formed in us but not all at once. When we overcome some sin in our life, glory be to God, not our free will.
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I don’t deny God puts His Spirit in us Bob or that it is His Spirit that works within us to will after His will. What I disagree with is that it is God doing the willing for us.
I agree Scott. God does not will for us. He causes us to desire to do His will.
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While you say that brother, but you also say Adam could not choose, life even if he wanted to which is contrary to the above statement.
It's not contrary, because God will not do the willing for anyone to choose life.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 08-18-2009 at 02:32 AM..
Well, the fact is that the bible teaches clearly that God hardens mens hearts and causes them to err to make an example and to further his own agenda in the world.
3. All of Israel, on multiple occasions as John spoke concerning it(Jhn 12:40), and Isaia wrote ...
Isaiah 63:17
"O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance."
4. The ten Kings of revelation whom God puts it into their heart to give their power to the beast.(Rev 17:17)
6. The evil men who are associated with the fallen angels in the book of jude are said to be "before of old, ordained to this condemnation"(Jud 1:4)
We're told in different places tha God creates some vessels for honor and some for dishonor(2Ti 2:20,Rom 9:21) ...
These are just a few examples of Gods control in the lives of wicked men to the point that they should sin.
Those are your facts as you see them; however, I have given time and time again a different understanding to those scripture.
Paul you have been saying in this thread and others that to be carnal is to hate God and not be able to recieve the things of God.
Yet babe in Christ are carnal and drink the milk of His Word.
So that leaves two conclussion.
1. that babe in Christ hate God and the milk is not of God
Or
2. you understanding of being carnal is in error.
I beleive your understanding of being carnal is in error.
Pneuma, I'm not going to toss you Gold so that you can treat it as dung. I purposely don't tell you a great many things because you don't consider them.
My analogy was about children choosing to explore or not. Do you believe that if a normal curious child will certainly spend much time exploring, that that child is not choosing to explore?
Your analogy is about Adam correct?
That Adam could not help himself and had to choose to be disobedient because of his nature to explore.
That is saying that Adams nature made the choice for him and he is but a puppet to his earthy nature.
Therefore, no choice is really given to Adam to choose between life and death.
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Making a choice does not require that one might maybe choose either option. I do not have to be capable of somehow forcing myself to prefer asparagus over lasagna to make a choice between the two.
Your trying to skirt the issue brother, was Adam given the choice of life or death or not?
Could Adam have obeyed and not eaten from the tree OKOGE?
You say no Adam could not have chosen to obey; therefore, Adam was not really given a choice to obey.
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I disagree about Adam being a son of God in the sense of being the same as one who is born again. He was a son of God in the same sense that Acts says we are all the offspring of God.
You can disagree if you like Bob, but Adam was given the breath of LIFE, placed into a heavenly sphere(the garden), had access to the tree of LIFE, the WORD walked daily with him, he had direct communion with God.
So explain how Adam had all these things if he is only a son of God in the sense that Acts says we are all offspring of God?
Do all people have the breath of life? Are all people placed into a heavenly sphere? Do all people have access to the tree of life? Does the WORD walk daily with all people? And do all people have direct communion with God?
When scripture gave forth Jesus’ generations it traced it through the spiritual line not the carnal line.
Adam was a SON OF GOD not after the flesh but after the Spirit.
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I assume you mean verse 2. The whole chapter is a warning to heed what Moses is commanding this day. Verses 1-11 are looking at what will take place should Israel disobey. Verses 1-2 supposes that Israel has already turned away. The curse is upon them, and they are comparing it to the blessing. They need to return to God and do what Moses is telling them this day. If they do, then God will gather them back and circumcize their heart. In contrast, verse 17 is back in the present since they have not turned away since it says "if thine heart turn away..."
Bob if I use that analogy of “this day” than when scripture states
Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Are we than to assume “to day” is only speaking of the past?
Does not verses 14-15 state that even though some are partakers of Christ that they can still HARDEN their hearts?
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As I said before, it's a process. Christ is being formed in us but not all at once. When we overcome some sin in our life, glory be to God, not our free will.
I agree it is all glory to the Father, freewill does not take away the glory being given to the Father. For we have the choice to yield our members to whom we will serve, if we yield to God all that we do is through Him and He gets all the Glory.
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It's not contrary, because God will not do the willing for anyone to choose life.
It is contradictory brother because you maintain that Adam had the choice of being obedient or not being obedient.
Than state but could not be obedient because God did not really, want him to be obedient.
So where is Adam choice than if he could not have chosen obedience?
Two trees in the garden brother
Adam was told by God he could freely eat from the tree of life.
Yet you believe Adam could not freely eat from it.
Adam was told by God he could not eat from the tree of KOGE.
Yet you believe God planned for Adam to eat contrary to His words not to eat.
Your belief is that God planned for Adam to eat from the tree of KOGE all along and therefore Adam could not choose to eat from the tree of life.
Thus making God a liar (because He told Adam he could freely eat) and planner of disobedience and death. (because you believe God planned Adams disobedience all along and Adam could not but be disobedient).
Your whole belief system here brother is based on God saying something but not really meaning what He said.
For God told Adam he could freely eat from the tree of life and you believe he could not because God planned for man to be disobedient.
God told Adam he could not eat from the tree of KOGE and you believe God planned for Adam to eat and be disobedient all along.
Thus, you take the two commandments of God and reverse their meaning altogether.
You can feely eat, but not really.
You cannot eat, but I really planned for you to eat.
Do God commandments really mean the opposite of what He commanded?
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Are we really being told to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Yet God does not really plan for us to do be able to do it.
I mean if we are going to change what God commanded in one place to really mean something else why can we not do the same with all things God commanded?
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