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When I was seven my stepmother lit a fire in a beaker and said to me, "If you don't open your heart's door to Jesus and invite Him in, God is going to put you into a fire much bigger and hotter than that after you die and He will never ever let you get out of it.”
So in my heart I prayed the way she said that I had to.
Awhile later she said it's obvious that you still are not saved because you are still such a bad boy.
At that point in time I felt totally hopeless, and I was sure that God had given up on me.
My Dad used to beat me with a bamboo cane repeatedly shouting "In Jesus Name, in Jesus Name," until the welts on my legs would bleed. He told me that it was easy to tell at an early age that I was going to go to hell.
Then they both sent me away to a foster home because they could no longer cope with my bad behavior. My real mother had died giving birth to me. My Dad's second wife had died at child birth too but the child did not live either.
So at the age of seven I became convinced that everyone had given up on me, including God.
Later, at the age of 28 (I'm 70 now) I began a twelve year nervous breakdown over my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever. I was only able to recover by gradually learning that there are no verses in the Bible that teach endless suffering in hell for anyone. See Bible Threatenings Explained
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
“That God may be All in all” 1Cor.15:28
From my earliest memories of my childhood I was taught by my parents and Sunday School teachers and pastors that if I didn't believe the Bible is the word of God then God will throw me into hell fire after I died where I would suffer forever. These were the people on whom I relied to tell me the truth, and I was afraid not to believe them.
If I had not been taught that about the Bible I am sure that I would have chosen to live out my life as an agnostic, rather than put my trust in a book that taught that there is a god who is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of suffering forever.
I think that probably most of the agnosticim in this world is caused by people choosing to live out their lives as agnostics, rather than put their trust in a book that teaches such a god as the ETers claim to love and worship.
Many agnostics are decent people who try their best to be as good as they can be simply because they want to treat other people with love and respect, the same way that they would like to be treated too. But they would rather live out their life and die in the hope that they will find out that God is not like the eternal tormentors claim He is.
This has become my attitude too. Were it not for the fact that I have discovered evidence that the Bible does not teach an ET god, then I too would rather live out my life as an agnostic and hope for the best after I die, rather than pretend to love and respect an eternal hell god.
My "feelings" have no power\impact, only God's Word. His Word is comfort for the believer and a warning for the unbeliever.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Can you not read in John 3:36 that Jesus is not speaking of UR? Is it that hard to see the distinction? How much more assurance is that.
(CLV) He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life [eonian], but the indignation of God is remaining on him."
(WNT) He who believes in the Son has the Life of the Ages; he who disobeys the Son will not enter into Life [of the ages], but God's anger remains upon him.
(YLT) he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life [age-during], but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'
I added the words in brackets above to show the elipsis.
Quote:
The other point is that this "chance" to avoid is more commonly known as "time of grace". This time of grace is only during while alive.
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgmentHebrews 9:27
Eusebius's reply: taken out of context.
Quote:
For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation. 2 Corinthians 6:2
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already .....John 3:18
One must not read into the idea of "condemned already" the idea of never being able to be saved. The Saul, later called the apostle Paul, was "condemned already" while breathing out threatenings. Yet we know how his story ended. Right?
Quote:
UR is offering another gospel. It offers the chance to reject Jesus with no consequences. I mean, you really don't need a savior in UR, just a second chance.
The lie is: you can believe anything, anyone your reason allows; God can be whatever you want him to be....it doesn't matter!... because you're not going to be condemned forever.
Actually, it is the same gospel Paul preached. And it was Paul who said if anyone brings a different gospel than the one he brought let him be anathema (not condemned forever). So it is the Christian to teaches eternal torment that brings a different gospel other than the one Paul brought and it is that Christian who is anathema.
Quote:
God says..oh really?
Galatians 1:9
"As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternallycondemned!"
Get a better translation. The Greek in Galatians 1:9 does not use any word that can be translated "eternally" not "condemned." The Greek word is "anathema" and just means "up-placed" and has the idea of when going into a temple there were hooks on the walls on which one could *place* an offering to the gods *up* on the hook.
Quote:
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Get a better translation. It is eonian or age-during life the believer gets and it is the eonian or age-during life the rejector does not get.
(CLV) He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life [eonian], but the indignation of God is remaining on him."
(WNT) He who believes in the Son has the Life of the Ages; he who disobeys the Son will not enter into Life [of the ages], but God's anger remains upon him.
(YLT) he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life [age-during], but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'
I added the words in brackets above to show the elipsis.
Eusebius's reply: taken out of context.
One must not read into the idea of "condemned already" the idea of never being able to be saved. The Saul, later called the apostle Paul, was "condemned already" while breathing out threatenings. Yet we know how his story ended. Right
Actually, it is the same gospel Paul preached. And it was Paul who said if anyone brings a different gospel than the one he brought let him be anathema (not condemned forever). So it is the Christian to teaches eternal torment that brings a different gospel other than the one Paul brought and it is that Christian who is anathema.
Get a better translation. The Greek in Galatians 1:9 does not use any word that can be translated "eternally" not "condemned." The Greek word is "anathema" and just means "up-placed" and has the idea of when going into a temple there were hooks on the walls on which one could *place* an offering to the gods *up* on the hook.
Get a better translation. It is eonian or age-during life the believer gets and it is the eonian or age-during life the rejector does not get.
No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.
Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and “aionion” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS An Analytical Study of Words (especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)
My name is Rodger Tutt, and I am the starter of this thread.
I live in Toronto, Canada, and I’m 70 years old.
I’m a Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist.
Before you brush off my assertion by saying “there is no such a thing,” think about the following.
MY TRIBUTE TO RAY PRINZING
Ray Prinzing is my hero and mentor. His writings can be Googled up and read online. Just type in Ray Prinzing.
During my twelve year nervous breakdown caused by my inability to emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever in hell, every morning, as I washed my family’s dishes, I would listen to one of Ray Prinzing’s many tapes.
I have listened to 178 of them several times, and 23 of them many times
In addition to these tapes, I always read every issue of his periodical GOSPEL ECHOES which he later renamed LETTERS OF TRUTH and gleaned many pages of his writings into my personal journal.
Many people have a hero, someone in their life that made a contribution to their welfare so significant that it is far above the influence that anyone else has had.
Ray Prinzing is that hero to me.
For several years my 96 year old dad called me from his nursing home each evening. Each time he called I read a portion of my over four thousand page journal to him, and many of these readings are the gleanings that I wrote from Ray Prinzing’s writings and tapes. Many nights my dad fell asleep listening to one of Ray’s tapes.
As I listened to Ray’s tapes during my nervous breakdown (1966-78) I gradually became more and more sure that I was going to recover. The contents of his tapes gave me the courage, in 1978, to take a public stand that I believe that the Bible teaches universal transformation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation. (I’m 70 years old now)
My panic attacks completely stopped.
And now I spend most of my time offering people, in various ways, the information that helped me recover and helps me stayed recovered, and I am pleased to report that I have a lot of evidence that the info I post has helped, and is helping many other people in the same way that it helped me.
Ray Prinzing has now passed on, but his influence is so wide spread that he will not be forgotten on this earth for many, many years, if ever. And that is a very good thing!
When I was seven my stepmother lit a fire in a beaker and said to me, "If you don't open your heart's door to Jesus and invite Him in, God is going to put you into a fire much bigger and hotter than that after you die and He will never ever let you get out of it.”
So in my heart I prayed the way she said that I had to.
Awhile later she said it's obvious that you still are not saved because you are still such a bad boy.
At that point in time I felt totally hopeless, and I was sure that God had given up on me.
My Dad used to beat me with a bamboo cane repeatedly shouting "In Jesus Name, in Jesus Name," until the welts on my legs would bleed. He told me that it was easy to tell at an early age that I was going to go to hell.
Then they both sent me away to a foster home because they could no longer cope with my bad behavior. My real mother had died giving birth to me. My Dad's second wife had died at child birth too but the child did not live either.
So at the age of seven I became convinced that everyone had given up on me, including God.
Later, at the age of 28 (I'm 70 now) I began a twelve year nervous breakdown over my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever. I was only able to recover by gradually learning that there are no verses in the Bible that teach endless suffering in hell for anyone. See Bible Threatenings Explained
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
“That God may be All in all” 1Cor.15:28
From my earliest memories of my childhood I was taught by my parents and Sunday School teachers and pastors that if I didn't believe the Bible is the word of God then God will throw me into hell fire after I died where I would suffer forever. These were the people on whom I relied to tell me the truth, and I was afraid not to believe them.
If I had not been taught that about the Bible I am sure that I would have chosen to live out my life as an agnostic, rather than put my trust in a book that taught that there is a god who is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of suffering forever.
I think that probably most of the agnosticim in this world is caused by people choosing to live out their lives as agnostics, rather than put their trust in a book that teaches such a god as the ETers claim to love and worship.
Many agnostics are decent people who try their best to be as good as they can be simply because they want to treat other people with love and respect, the same way that they would like to be treated too. But they would rather live out their life and die in the hope that they will find out that God is not like the eternal tormentors claim He is.
This has become my attitude too. Were it not for the fact that I have discovered evidence that the Bible does not teach an ET god, then I too would rather live out my life as an agnostic and hope for the best after I die, rather than pretend to love and respect an eternal hell god.
(CLV) He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life [eonian], but the indignation of God is remaining on him."
(WNT) He who believes in the Son has the Life of the Ages; he who disobeys the Son will not enter into Life [of the ages], but God's anger remains upon him.
(YLT) he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life [age-during], but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'
I added the words in brackets above to show the elipsis.
Eusebius's reply: taken out of context.
One must not read into the idea of "condemned already" the idea of never being able to be saved. The Saul, later called the apostle Paul, was "condemned already" while breathing out threatenings. Yet we know how his story ended. Right?
Actually, it is the same gospel Paul preached. And it was Paul who said if anyone brings a different gospel than the one he brought let him be anathema (not condemned forever). So it is the Christian to teaches eternal torment that brings a different gospel other than the one Paul brought and it is that Christian who is anathema.
Get a better translation. The Greek in Galatians 1:9 does not use any word that can be translated "eternally" not "condemned." The Greek word is "anathema" and just means "up-placed" and has the idea of when going into a temple there were hooks on the walls on which one could *place* an offering to the gods *up* on the hook.
Get a better translation. It is eonian or age-during life the believer gets and it is the eonian or age-during life the rejector does not get.
Twin.Spins reply: Don't need a better translation, I don't have itching ears. 2 Timothy 4:3
Believers in Eternal Torture claim that they don't have itching ears ... Whatever the case may be, it sure is apparent that most of them have itching trigger fingers!
Hi, I am thinking that if a translation was written in Spanish and translated into English using the English word "car" for the Spanish word "house" as someone stated on another thread, an effort to determine the correct word to be used which would change the meaning would mean that I would have "itching ears." Using tools to aid in handling accurately God's word does not mean that someone has "itching ears." God bless.
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The eons of the bible with concordance
God bless.
