I'm a Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist (woman, agnostic, believers, pray)
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Rodger I can identify with what you've gone through, what's even stranger about this is that I'm not liberal minded, I support capital punishment and harsher sentences for criminals, however I've been going through a nightmare similar to the one you've expressed, that started at the beginning of last year, which I never, ever expected to go through, I'm still going through it because I just can't see UR and I could never ever again defend or justify the doctrine of ET, the closest I can come to is annihilation
It beggars belief that most christians can be totally unbothered and so accepting of the concept of ET, for me I wake up each morning to this nightmare, the thought that any person being tortured forever is an unspeakable nightmare and burden to me, which has led to severe depression and anxiety, sometimes I wish my life was like it was 3 years ago when all I had to deal with were my normal problems under normal circumstances which were bad enough, but bearable
Alison, please read some of the contents of my guest book that can be accessed towards the bottom of the front page on my forum at Hope 4 You, Rodger Tutt
You will find many messages by people who have struggled like you and I have.
Also, I am wondering if you saw a previous message that I posted?
You might be inclined to check out the evidence why some of us think that the Bible teaches universal salvation rather than annihilation.
An online book that shows why we believe the Bible teaches universal salvation rather than annihilation is ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch.
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED - chapters three and four
(If necessary copy and paste the following url into your browser address bar) Lighthouse Library International - ALL IN ALL, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author
For example, two are
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION ONE STEP OUT OF HELL Eternal Death (Annihilation): One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory
or
JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE WORD DESTRUCTION?
Just What Do You Mean By The Word DESTRUCTION? (http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/destruction3.html - broken link)
Here is an intro to the book
ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch (222 pages)
Concordant Publishing Concern Concordant Publishing Concern
Introduction:
"The blood of Christ is the basis of all blessing. The purpose of God determines human destiny. It does not depend on our deserts. The plan or process of God during the eons or ages must be distinguished from His purpose which will not be fully accomplished until the eons are past. Herein lies the difference between the teaching of the Scriptures and the accepted creeds of Christendom.
The believer suffers in the current era because of sin, but will be released in the resurrection at the presence of Christ. The unbeliever will have affliction and anguish for his sins in the judgment, but he also becomes reconciled to God at the consummation, through the blood of Christ’s cross. (Col.1-20).
Universal reconciliation is the glorious goal toward which all leads. All of God’s purpose is achieved through Him Who is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev.1:8). “In Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him [God delights] to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens” (Col.1:19,20)
The terms translated “forever” and “everlasting” and “never” are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered. They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons. All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times. Much in our common creeds is true if confined within the eons, but it is most malignant error when forced beyond the eons.
Since judgment is not eternal, but eonian, we may accept all the solemn threats of death and condemnation without reservation, while happily exulting in God’s grand goal to which all His labors lead: that God may be All in All (1Cor.15:28)."
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
Last edited by rodgertutt; 07-20-2009 at 12:04 PM..
Reason: spelling
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language.
TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism. Christian Universalism: Universalist Thought Through Church History
THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
GOD’S TRUTH LIBRARY
God's Truth For Today! - Author Index (http://www.gtft.org/Library/index1.html - broken link) IN THE GARDEN
In The Garden - Index (http://www.gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html - broken link)
Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that many of the links posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.
I’m 70 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.
This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.
If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.
Copy and paste into Google The Law of Circularity
At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that deal with the many aspects of this same subject. Savior of the World Series
Last edited by rodgertutt; 07-20-2009 at 02:01 PM..
Reason: spelling
"The blood of Christ is the basis of all blessing. The purpose of God determines human destiny. It does not depend on our deserts. The plan or process of God during the eons or ages must be distinguished from His purpose which will not be fully accomplished until the eons are past. Herein lies the difference between the teaching of the Scriptures and the accepted creeds of Christendom.
The believer suffers in the current era because of sin, but will be released in the resurrection at the presence of Christ. The unbeliever will have affliction and anguish for his sins in the judgment, but he also becomes reconciled to God at the consummation, through the blood of Christ’s cross. (Col.1-20).
Universal reconciliation is the glorious goal toward which all leads. All of God’s purpose is achieved through Him Who is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev.1:8). “In Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him [God delights] to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens” (Col.1:19,20)
The terms translated “forever” and “everlasting” and “never” are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered. They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons. All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times. Much in our common creeds is true if confined within the eons, but it is most malignant error when forced beyond the eons.
Since judgment is not eternal, but eonian, we may accept all the solemn threats of death and condemnation without reservation, while happily exulting in God’s grand goal to which all His labors lead: that God may be All in All (1Cor.15:28)."
The only stubborness I have is to resist false teaching. "We know for a fact that hell is not eternal" is the same old lie the devil told Adam & Eve and is alive and well.
You tell me you resist false teaching. It appears you resist many teachings that differ from the standard fundamental/orthodox dogma which has ruled Christianity since the dawn of the roman Catholic church. If you had been born before the protestant reformation or at the time you would probably be saying the same thing about the few protestant ideas concerning scripture which differ from Catholic teachings. In revelations we see that hell is destroyed by the lake of fire ... yet you insist it is eternal(Rev 20:14). I suppose you believe death will exist eternally also, though the bible says it will be the last enemy defeated, and it will be done away with in the lake of fire also. Christ said he will make new all things, but you say he will leave the majority of humanity(his creation) in the old sin to suffer eternal torture and death in hell. The bible teaches contrary to this, and it is obvious once the word Aion and its adjectives are revealed to mean age or pertaining to the ages and not everlasting or eternal. Not to mention the fact that the pagan myth of Hell was adopted to represent four different words and three different concepts in scripture.
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Your post sums it well, UR makes you feel good, politically correct and removes the eternal consequence of rebellion.
the truth about Christ is good news, its supposed to make you feel good, that is why is is called the GOOD NEWS(gospel) and not the BAD NEWS.
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In your way of thinking, Jesus (the father of all lies) would say.....
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven,....."
Matthew 10:33
"But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven."
The Parable of the Weeds Explained Matt 13 :40-43
40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."
John 8:43-46
The Children of the Devil
43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say....... If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
I don't agree with UR because I listen to Jesus!
Wow, you think Jesus is the father of lies? No wonder you don't believe that he will make ALL THINGS new like he proclaims in Rev 21:5 ... Or that he will draw all men to himself as he proclaims in Jhn 12:32. Jesus is not a lier, indeed the wrath of God will fall on the wicked, and will correct them and burn away their sin and iniquities as sure a the viticulturist prunes the vine.
I have already explained John 3:36 in a previous post. The rest of the scripture there fall under the same answer as well. But i think i should explain the kingdom of Heaven. The kingdom of heaven is within the elect through the holy spirit and represents our election to be ambassadors of Christ in this age and then to rule with Christ a thousand years in the age to come. Obviously the unbelievers do not and will not have part in it, either as ambassadors in this age or as king-priests in the age to come. However, in the fullness of time, and at the culmination of the ages, when the age of ages is come, all sin, death, and hell(grave) will be done away with, and all power and authority of will be subjected to Christ. At that time Christ will renew all things and everything in heaven, in earth, and under the earth will be reconciled to God through Christ who shall become the head of all things. Then every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess of all kindreds of every nation, that Christ is lord to the glory and worship of the father, to whom they ALL shall swear featly.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 07-20-2009 at 02:27 PM..
There is no "I" in God or Jesus. You see what you want to see, you believe what you want to believe and you glean from the scriptures things that are clearly not there.
In Greek there is a "I" in Jesus "IHCOU" and in Hebrew there is an "I" in God" IEUE.
We see what God and Christ wants us to see and believe what They give to us to believe.
Since eternal hell is real to you and you believe it is just regaurdless of your feelings.
Then do you believe it is just considering you cannot offer to anyone assurance that they can truly avoid it, including yourself?
My "feelings" have no power\impact, only God's Word. His Word is comfort for the believer and a warning for the unbeliever.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Can you not read in John 3:36 that Jesus is not speaking of UR? Is it that hard to see the distinction? How much more assurance is that.
The other point is that this "chance" to avoid is more commonly known as "time of grace". This time of grace is only during while alive.
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgmentHebrews 9:27
For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation. 2 Corinthians 6:2
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already .....John 3:18
UR is offering another gospel. It offers the chance to reject Jesus with no consequences. I mean, you really don't need a savior in UR, just a second chance.
The lie is: you can believe anything, anyone your reason allows; God can be whatever you want him to be....it doesn't matter!... because you're not going to be condemned forever.
God says..oh really?
Galatians 1:9
"As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternallycondemned!"
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
I am talking about aspects of God we can't cope with or understand? I am asking you the same question I asked Phazelwood. Could you worship and love a God IF He created an eternal hell to eternally torment souls?
Would you still love, embrace and bow to the wisdown and goodness of that God?
The point is that God says that he has shown the creation what is good and right and what is not.
Are you following God because he is stronger than you and not because of what is truth and good?
Punishment is coming to those who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2Ti 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
He told us through Jesus - love your enemies
God will not turn out to be an eternal torturer He tells us to overcome evil with good. There is no hypocricy about God - what he tells us to do is what he will do. We are to be holy because he is holy.
Wow, you think Jesus is the father of lies? No wonder you don't believe that he will make ALL THINGS new like he proclaims in Rev 21:5 ... Or that he will draw all men to himself as he proclaims in Jhn 12:32. Jesus is not a lier, indeed the wrath of God will fall on the wicked, and will correct them and burn away their sin and iniquities as sure a the viticulturist prunes the vine.
No, I was using a hypothetical argument if UR is true.
Let me say this a clear as can be,
Either UR (no matter how far back you can trace it) is true and Jesus is a liar or Jesus is true and UR is a lie by the devil. They are not both true.
UR promotes a gospel that has no consequences for unbelievers, its that simple. And for those who teach a different gospel God has no mercy and will be eternally condemned.
Galatians 1:9
"As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"
One of us will be surprised..................and its not me.
My "feelings" have no power\impact, only God's Word. His Word is comfort for the believer and a warning for the unbeliever.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Can you not read in John 3:36 that Jesus is not speaking of UR? Is it that hard to see the distinction? How much more assurance is that.
The other point is that this "chance" to avoid is more commonly known as "time of grace". This time of grace is only during while alive.
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgmentHebrews 9:27
For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation. 2 Corinthians 6:2
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already .....John 3:18
UR is offering another gospel. It offers the chance to reject Jesus with no consequences. I mean, you really don't need a savior in UR, just a second chance.
The lie is: you can believe anything, anyone your reason allows; God can be whatever you want him to be....it doesn't matter!... because you're not going to be condemned forever.
God says..oh really?
Galatians 1:9
"As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternallycondemned!"
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
This is so frustrating. Why do you guys insist on blatantly misrepresenting UR?
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UR is offering another gospel. It offers the chance to reject Jesus with no consequences. I mean, you really don't need a savior in UR, just a second chance.
This is simply a lie. Why do you insist on lying about what we say and believe? is it to simply discredit what we say, or is it because of denial and your unwillingness to honestly receive what we are saying regardless of whether or not you choose to agree?
There are severe consequences for rebelling against God and we have been saying that all along, but those consequences are not eternal as you would believe them to be. They are aionios(age-during). you Keep repeating the same scripture over and over knowing full well that aion does not mean forever or eternal or everlasting. Repetition of fallacies and denial do not change the facts.
Then you go and quote Galatians 1:9. I am not sure what translation that is but there is no word in that verse that could even remotely be construed to mean eternally or condemned. The word anathema is used in that verse which did not originally mean condemned, it meant excommunicated.
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Anathema in Greek
Anathema (Greek Word -Ανάθεμα-: meaning originally something lifted up as an offering to the gods; later, with evolving meanings, it came to mean:# to be formally set apart, # banished, exiled, excommunicated or # denounced, often misinterpreted to mean accursed. There is some difficulty translating this word, especially since it has now become commonly associated with the term accursed. The original meaning of the Greek word, as used in non-Biblical Greek literature, was an offering to a god. When the word was used in the Septuagint (Greek translation of Hebrew scripture) it was used to translate the Hebrew word 'herem' with which it therefore became associated. 'Herem' meant something 'forbidden' or 'off limits.' The Hebrew word was used in verses such as Leviticus 27:28 to refer to things offered to God, and hence 'off limits' to common (non-religious) use. Because the Greek word 'anathema' meant things offered to God, it was used to translate the Hebrew word 'herem' in such contexts. Thus the meaning of the Greek word 'anathema,' under the influence of its association with the Hebrew word 'herem,' was eventually taken as meaning 'set apart,' (like 'herem') rather than 'an offering to god,' as it had meant in Greek, and eventually the word came to be seen as meaning 'banished' and to be considered beyond the judgment and help of the community. Unfortunately within the English language one does not find such a term. To use the term curse alone suggests dark powers and magical arts, which are forbidden in the Judeo-Christian societies in which the word was used.
In Greek usage, an anathema was anything laid up or suspended; hence anything laid up in a temple or set apart as sacred. In this sense the form of the word was once (in plural) used in the Greek New Testament, in Luke 21:5, where it is rendered "gifts". It is used similarly in the Book of Judith, where it is translated as "gift to the Lord." In the Septuagint the form anathema is generally used as the rendering of the Hebrew word herem, derived from a verb which means (1) to consecrate or devote; and (2) to exterminate. Any object so sacrificed or devoted to the Lord could not be redeemed (Num. 18:14; Lev. 27:28, 29); and hence the idea of exterminating was connected with the word. The Hebrew verb (haram) is frequently used of the extermination of idolatrous nations. It had a wide range of application. The anathema or herem was a person or thing irrevocably devoted to God (Lev. 27:21, 28); and "none devoted shall be ransomed. He shall surely be put to death" (27:29). The Hebrew word therefore carried the idea of devoted to destruction (Num.21:2, 3; Josh. 6:17); and hence a majority of scholars have treated the word anathema similarly, generally as meaning a thing accursed. For example, in Deut. 7:26 an idol is called a herem = anathema, understood to mean a thing accursed. There is, however, an alternative view that the Greek word 'anathema,' in these pasages, was used by the Greek Septuagint translators to mean "offered up to God."
Article taken from ALLEXPERTS.com
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Suggestion to alison
