Jesus is willing that some shall Perish (Greek, people, generation)
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It is the logical conclusion when the template of intepretation filters all of those highlighted words into the context of an eternal hell.
If you filter those same words through the context of Gods promise to chastise and correct through, mercy, grace, righteous wrath and righteous judgment which is a temporary state, then they can have a different meaning.
Some statements in scripture are just facts of the state of our being carnal, in denial, decieved, but, there are also scriptures staing the facts of our being when the goal of our reconciliation is complete.
So in that frame of reference it is not the logical conclusion.
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It is the logical conclusion when the template of intepretation filters all of those highlighted words into the context of an eternal hell.
Sorry, but I do not believe in an eternal hell. Wrong context, as I was not going there with the verses. It says what it means, and means what it says. I don't need to add nor subtract anything from it.
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If you filter those same words through the context of Gods promise to chastise and correct through, mercy, grace, righteous wrath and righteous judgment which is a temporary state, then they can have a different meaning.
I don't need to 'filter' them to see them the way I would like to, for they stand on their own. Adding or subtracting anything in the Word is dangerous, to say the least. If the Spirit is not guiding us, then we are all damnned anyway.
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Some statements in scripture are just facts of the state of our being carnal, in denial, decieved, but, there are also scriptures staing the facts of our being when the goal of our reconciliation is complete.
This is true, so what lens are we reading them through?
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So in that frame of reference it is not the logical conclusion
That is where it gets REALLY dangerous. We cannot make conclusions on our own,,,only led through this World and Word by the Spirit. I once believed in what you believe, until I was shown the door out of it, through the Spirit. The Spirit told me to worry about my own salvation, and not focus on other's, because that was God the Father's job.
So, now I leave it to Him, but challenge those whoo say their doctrines are the correct ones. How does any of us know? Are we there yet? Have we been there? Then it is truly a mystery, and I think it is best to leave it that way, until it is revealed to us, by Him.
This is a very important point. Many will not inherit the kingdom during the reign of the elect, but all will eventually be subject to. In effect, like you said, not all enter the Kingdom at the same time, but they all will eventually enter.
Being subject to the kingdom does not mean eternal hell, it just means you are cast outside with the dogs (Rev 22:15), but notice all can freely take of the water of life. Whoever is thirsty let him come (Rev 22:17). Who is thirsty? Its not those in the Kingdom, they already have the living water of Jesus. Its those who are in the outer darkness - they are the ones who are thirsty that the holy spirit calls to. The gates to the kingdom never close so all will be able to enter.
Shana, here are a couple more verses to add to your list that are pretty clear:
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Joel 2:28 "And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
This is a very important point. Many will not inherit the kingdom during the reign of the elect, but all will eventually be subject to. In effect, like you said, not all enter the Kingdom at the same time, but they all will eventually enter.
Being subject to the kingdom does not mean eternal hell, it just means you are cast outside with the dogs (Rev 22:15), but notice all can freely take of the water of life. Whoever is thirsty let him come (Rev 22:17). Who is thirsty? Its not those in the Kingdom, they already have the living water of Jesus. Its those who are in the outer darkness - they are the ones who are thirsty that the holy spirit calls to. The gates to the kingdom never close so all will be able to enter.
Shana, here are a couple more verses to add to your list that are pretty clear:
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Joel 2:28 "And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
Be well...
That goes directly against what Jesus said concerning the 'Rich Man and Lazarus'. Notice the Rich Man desired just a DROP of Water...and none was given.
That goes directly against what Jesus said concerning the 'Rich Man and Lazarus'. Notice the Rich Man desired just a DROP of Water...and none was given.
So do you think the bible contradicts itself? I have a scripture that says anyone can take of the water freely, and you have another scripture that says the Rich Man could not get any water? Scripture contradicts scripture?
But of course you must know the rich man and lazarus is a parable which has nothing to do with eternal torment.
Even if it was a factual account, there is nothing in Luke 16 to show that the rich man was tormented for ETERNITY. It says no such thing. Therefore he could take the water after the age had ended.
It is simply another parable representing the Kingdom reign. The Rich man represents Israel/Judah, and Lazarus represents Elizer/Gentiles. Israel were the chosen people, but they missed out on the Kingdom.
Read this article about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. There are also other articles on it if you do a google search. bible-truths.com has a good one.
So do you think the bible contradicts itself? I have a scripture that says anyone can take of the water freely, and you have another scripture that says the Rich Man could not get any water? Scripture contradicts scripture?
But of course you must know the rich man and lazarus is a parable which has nothing to do with eternal torment.
Even if it was a factual account, there is nothing in Luke 16 to show that the rich man was tormented for ETERNITY. It says no such thing. Therefore he could take the water after the age had ended.
It is simply another parable representing the Kingdom reign. The Rich man represents Israel/Judah, and Lazarus represents Elizer/Gentiles. Israel were the chosen people, but they missed out on the Kingdom.
Read this article about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. There are also other articles on it if you do a google search. bible-truths.com has a good one.
Peace...
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I have a scripture that says anyone can take of the water freely, and you have another scripture that says the Rich Man could not get any water? Scripture contradicts scripture?
Anyone CAN take of the Water freely, NOW. I see no contradiction.
And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
Does desire take place in the afterlife? Doesn't anyone who hears also thirsts? We do, don't we. We desire now to drink of that Life giving Water, until we are overflowing, right?
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But of course you must know the rich man and lazarus is a parable which has nothing to do with eternal torment.
Never said it did. I was using it as an example of someone who CANNOT drink freely of the Life giving Water.
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Even if it was a factual account, there is nothing in Luke 16 to show that the rich man was tormented for ETERNITY. It says no such thing. Therefore he could take the water after the age had ended.
Another conclusion.
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It is simply another parable representing the Kingdom reign. The Rich man represents Israel/Judah, and Lazarus represents Elizer/Gentiles. Israel were the chosen people, but they missed out on the Kingdom.
How did they 'miss' out on the Kingdom? Were not the Apostles and believers numbering thousands who were anointed in the Spirit, Israelites? The same could be said about Gentiles, really.
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Read this article about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. There are also other articles on it if you do a google search. bible-truths.com has a good one.
I have read most of them. The problem is that they don't ALL line up completely with the Word. If you drink koolaid that is 95% pure, and 5% poison, then ALL of the koolaid is bad, not just the 5%.
Sorry, but I do not believe in an eternal hell. Wrong context, as I was not going there with the verses. It says what it means, and means what it says. I don't need to add nor subtract anything from it.
I understand the point, but it is not that simple in my opinion, for if we simply read a verse and it means what it means then we will find a verse that contradicts on the same basis of reading. Where I agree with you is on the matter of adding or subtracting, but that does not prevent us from seeing scripture beyond our perceptions.
Like the issue of Gods wrath, I cannot say that God does not have Wrath, but I can conclude that God is not acting out his wrath in a human way as if I might do so.
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This is true, so what lens are we reading them through?
In my own personal beliefs I read the bible as a love story to mankind.
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That is where it gets REALLY dangerous. We cannot make conclusions on our own,,,only led through this World and Word by the Spirit. I once believed in what you believe, until I was shown the door out of it, through the Spirit. The Spirit told me to worry about my own salvation, and not focus on other's, because that was God the Father's job.
So, now I leave it to Him, but challenge those whoo say their doctrines are the correct ones. How does any of us know? Are we there yet? Have we been there? Then it is truly a mystery, and I think it is best to leave it that way, until it is revealed to us, by Him.
That is why I do not adhere strictly to any teachings but what I hope to gather spiritually, what I may conclude may align with another persons teachings, but it is not because I follow a doctrine that I have come to those conclusions.
Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
I think the most important issue is to do as we are instructed. To share the good news.
That we are part of a grand plan, and that we are not alone, and that altough we are stuck on this Earth, our Father who created us in the image of Himself, has given us His only begotten Son as a sacrifice for our sins we have committed against each other and Him, to reconcile us to Him, now that the Way to Eden has been opened up for us. A marvelous love affair that spans the width of time and space. It is as beautiful as could ever be even described. Our eyes have yet to "see" the wonders of Him and His Glory, outside of our physical senses.
That our gift from Him was the ability of choice to choose whether we want to accept His Generosity, Love, and Grace, through His Son.
I see nobody believes that Jesus was not willing to save these, but he commanded them to continue in the path that leads to their damnation in hell..
Matt 23:
32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Did not tell them to repent, or He loves them, but fill ye up then the measure of your fathers..
Why should we suspect that he literally meant for them to keep on sinning? If I knew a group of people that always lied to sound cool, and I confronted them about it, and they only rejected my suggestions to stop deceiving people, might I not say, "Continue to lie! How can you hope to escape the damage all your lying will cause you?" I'm certainly not condoning their activities nor do I actually wish for them to continue in their ways, but I can hope that if I just let them continue in their ways they'll eventually see the light, once they realize lying is not getting them anywhere.
That's a complete possibility, and honestly, seems more in line with the love of Jesus if you ask me.
No offense my friend but I will stick to the New American Standard. I just don't see universalism in scripture but thanks. Young's Literal Translation is no different to me than the New World Translation
Well, you might not see universalism in them, but it would better aid you in understanding the original texts and intent of the scriptures if you studied their original languages.
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist
How am I comparing God to our standards? I accept scripture for what it is, what it reads. I am not the one using greek text to try to remove a clear attribute from God, somehow giving Him an excuse.
You need to really examine yourself on seeing who is the one changing text. You base your doctrine off of one "bible" when all the others don't agree. Yet! I am the one bringing God down to our standards?
Using Greek text (and Hebrew text in the case of the Old Testament) is the best way to understand the original writings of the scriptures, as they were originally written in Hebrew and Greek (respectively). Thus, if we can better understand Hebrew and Greek we can better understand the original message of the scriptures. We're not twisting anything, we're simply translating more accurately. On another note, it's not true that only "one" Bible version translates words a certain way. There's multiple Bible versions (i.e. Young's Literal Translation, Rotherham's Emphasized Bible) that translate, for instance, "aionios" as age-lasting/age-abiding rather than eternal (which ends up creating contradictions if used as eternal). Plus, no version of the Bible is completely the same, so there's no two identical Bible translations. (Notice that KJV is not the same as the Amplified Bible, Young's Literal Translation, etc.)
Just pointing that out. Hebrew was the original for the Old Testament and Greek was the original for the New Testament.
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