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Yes I do ignore your points since you ignore Jesus words..matt 23:
27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
ps 5:
5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Do you think i should ignore Jesus, the word of God and listen to you ? A false teacher ?
Sir, I do not ignore the words of Jesus. I notice you quote Matthew 23:32 to try and, again, make reference to eternal damnation. However, if you look at the more accurate translation you will find that Jesus said nothing about eternal damnation, or Hell, but rather, GEHENNA and JUDGEMENT.
Matthew 23:30-35 (Young's Literal Translation)
Quote:
31So that ye testify to yourselves, that ye are sons of them who did murder the prophets;
32and ye -- ye fill up the measure of your fathers.
33`Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
Gehenna is not Hell (in fact, there is NO SUCH WORD AS "HELL" in the more accurate translations of the Bible). Within the OT and the NT four words were spoken of that have been misinterpreted as Hell, these words beings: (in Hebrew) Sheol, (and, in Greek) Hades, Gehenna and Tarturus/Tartarus. None of them meant a place of eternal damnation. Certainly it could be suggested that Gehenna meant reference to a place of alienation from God, and perhaps even the destruction of the wicked. But this does not mean A) all who are thrown into Gehenna are permanently separated, and B) destruction of the wicked does not actually mean that once the wicked is destroyed the person is actually destroyed himself. Saul, the chief of sinners, was destroyed, and then turned into Paul. As it turns out, one of the early church fathers, Origen, who studied extensively on the Scriptures, came to the conclusion that: aside from Gehenna simply being a geographical location to the south of Jerusalem, it also had the secondary thought of being a place of purification.
Furthermore, less I be accused again of ignoring Jesus' words further: I am not denying the extreme likelihood of the Pharisees being judged in the judgement of the Gehenna. I simply do not hold that this judgement will be eternal damnation in Hell as the original text does not support such an idea. Aionios kolasis suggests age-lasting correction, if anything, from Jesus' words in Matthew 25:46. (That is, if you were even to connect the two statements/verses.)
Another further note: it could be possible, and to me, seems quite possible that all that Jesus spoke of in the judgement of the Gehenna was the judgement that would fall upon Jerusalem in 70 A.D. when the Romans would destroy the city.
You also quote Psalms 5:
Psalm 5:5 (Young's Literal Translation)
Quote:
5The boastful station not themselves before Thine eyes: Thou hast hated all working iniquity.
God does not truly hate those who do evil. At least, not in the sense of hate that most people think of hate. Paul explains in Romans what it means for God to "hate" someone:
Rom 9:10-13
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her (Rebecca), The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
To borrow a quote from Mercifultruth.com:
Quote:
This is not a even a scripture about God hating a sinner. According to the Bible, God had made a decision about Esau, and Jacob without them "having done any good or evil."
Within these scriptures we begin to see clues about what God really means by "hating Esau." Obviously God is using "linguistic hyperbole" to illustrate His choice before either son had been born, before either had done good or evil. Hi[s] choice was not based on that criteria. God made a choice, and by action, He loved Jacob (by choosing him) and hated Esau (by not choosing him). This verse has nothing to do with lustful human hatred from a deeply wicked heart.
(In fact, if you'd like to read the entirety of the article I quoted from, you can go here: Merciful Truth)
It should be noted that if God REALLY did hate in the sense that you seem to imply, he would take delight in the death of the wicked (but as you know, he does not take delight in the death of the wicked).
As far as your accusation that I am a false teacher: I call out your ad hominem and tell you that you have committed a logical fallacy. Do not attack the man, attack the man's point. As far as I'm concerned you have done truly nothing to deter my point, and are far away from proving me a false teacher.
Whoa! Whoa! We Christians have a bad tendency to somehow push one virtue of God's over another because we are of the misguided notion that one virtue is bad even when pertaining to God which is not only shortsighted but illogical as well. It is true God is love, but He is also a God of wrath and anger. This is not an out of control, crazy anger like human beings possess but a controlled, holy, righteous anger. It is clear God is angry at the wicked everyday and yet He lets them live; He still provides for them; He died for them.
It is not logical to defend God's anger in that manner, we should not make excuses for God, we are the fallen not Him. His anger is eons better than the greatest of human being's love.
Love is not a "virtue" of God. Love is what God is. That is his essence. Can hatred be found in love? Can wrath be found in love?
God is love. God is not wrath. God is not hate.
Now lets be clear. God shows wrath. God shows anger. But even these actions are done for an ultimately loving goal, because GOD is LOVE.
God will not show wrath for eternity. He will not be angry forever:
Micah 7:18 Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stayangryforever but delight to show mercy.
Even the wrath and judgment outlined in Revelations will eventually end:
Rev 15:1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed.
THINK about this. God does not stay angry because he delights to show mercy! Yet you believe he will be eternally angry at those in hell and never show them mercy?!? Your doctrine of eternal torment contradicts the scriptures friend.
Love is not a "virtue" of God. Love is what God is. That is his essence. Can hatred be found in love? Can wrath be found in love?
God is love. God is not wrath. God is not hate.
Now lets be clear. God shows wrath. God shows anger. But even these actions are done for an ultimately loving goal, because GOD is LOVE.
You are making the mistake of bringing God to your level by asking those questions. We must go to His level. You are arguing from a finite, fallen, twisted, perverted false foundation of standards. God is love but God does hate. Don't sugar coat it. He hates but His hate is righteous and holy than your best love.
You can't compare our love with God's. His ways, His thoughts are higher. Read scripture for what it is, don't try to philosophize it because of something you don't like or fully comprehend.
You are making the mistake of bringing God to your level by asking those questions. We must go to His level. You are arguing from a finite, fallen, twisted, perverted foundation of standards. God is love but God does hate. Don't sugar coat it. He hates but His hate is righteous and holy than your best love.
You can't compare our love with God's. His ways, His thoughts are higher. Read scripture for what it is, don't try to philosophize it because of something you don't like or fully comprehend.
and to answer your question, YES!
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday ,today and forever.
Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father
Gods character and nature was fully demonstrated to us when we were at our worst Romans 5 .
Hebrews 1
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
Show me from any of the gospels where His character and nature was nothing short of reaching out to people 100% of time . Yes i know He overturned tables and rebuked the pharisees , but that is the only way to deal with the religious
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday ,today and forever.
Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father
Gods character and nature was fully demonstrated to us when we were at our worst Romans 5 .
Hebrews 1
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
Show me from any of the gospels where His character and nature was nothing short of reaching out to people 100% of time . Yes i know He overturned tables and rebuked the pharisees , but that is the only way to deal with the religious
The people in the market were not religious nor were the thousands who yelled, "crucify Him"!
I really don't understand what you are getting at and how does this pertain to the topic?
Micah 7:18 You [God] do not stayangryforever but delight to show mercy.
I take that to mean God will not stay angry forever, but delights to show mercy.
of course He doesn't because all will be reconciled and His Son will marry the church. I do not know what this has to do with God being angry with the wicked everyday?
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 06-24-2009 at 03:17 PM..
There is no evidence, just like you don't have any evidence that it means hell is only for a season. That's why this argument is pointless, moot, just plain stupid. Age lasting to me means eternal. Age abiding to me means an age that never ends. There is no definite translation for some certain words in ANY language so these types of arguments are pointless and circular.
Ah, no evidence? So you're just making these words mean exactly what you want them to mean? In that case, I think that the word aionios kolasis (age-lasting/age-abiding correction) simply mean "happy times." Seriously, you've done nothing to disprove my point, and I've been using extra-biblical sources from the times of Jesus to show that the usage of "aionios" in that time period meant temporal periods of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright
Oh yes, the infamous Josephus. Did he write any of the books of the Bible? NO. And how in the world does John being in prison relate to the argument of no eternal hell???
Infamous? Maybe to you, but Josephus is a well-known and respected historian of ancient times. And no, I'm not saying he wrote any books of the Bible, I'm simply quoting a historian of the same period of Jesus to show that the usage of "aionios" referred to temporal time periods, and not "eternal" or "everlasting." The point of John being within jail and its relation to Hell is this: Josephus spoke of John being within jail for an "aionios" amount of time, that is, a limited period of time, rather than eternity. Thus, when Jesus speaks of "aionios kolasis" he is not speaking of eternal separation or punishment by God, but rather age-lasting (a temporal period of) correction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright
Again, Josephus has no credibility in Biblical arguments.
Josephus has MUCH, MUCH credibility in Biblical arguments, at least, when it comes to finding out the definition of words used within the Gospels. If I wrote a book and used the word "dog" within it, it would be silly to say I meant "cat" when writers of my time period understood "dog" to mean a four-legged canine. So, when we look at writings contemporary with Christ's time, and find that "aionios" referred to a temporary time period (with a beginning and end, even if the beginning and end are not currently known), then it would make perfect sense to assume this is also what Jesus meant when he used the word.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright
Oh so NOW you know what Jesus Christ was thinking? Where's YOUR evidence for that?? He never spoke of ANY SUCH THING. You are putting words in God's own mouth!!
I've already quoted the evidence. Writers, such as Josephus, used aionios to mean undefined periods of time, but periods of time WITH AN END. I'm not putting words in Jesus mouth. I'm looking at what words he spoke, what the people of Jesus' day understood those words to mean, and therefore concluding that Jesus really did mean age-lasting correction. To quote at least two others, from an article, which agree:
Quote:
Professor A.T. Robertson, in his Word Pictures in the N.T., and Prof. A.B. Bruce, in The Expositor's Greek Testament, agree that the kolasis aionion, the "everlasting punishment" of the KJV, has a literal meaning of "age-lasting correction."
Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
Actually, he spoke of an age-lasting fire.
Matthew 18:8 (Young's Literal Translation):
Quote:
8`And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble, cut them off and cast from thee; it is good for thee to enter into the life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire the age-during.
Quote:
I don't question what God can or can't do....I just follow what His Word says. And it is advisable for anyone else to do the same.
It is advisable. Why don't you look into the original Hebrew and Greek of the Old Testament and New Testament? You'd, hopefully, at the very least, find it interesting.
of course He doesn't because all will be reconciled and His Son will marry the church. I do not know what this has to do with God being angry with the wicked everyday?
Fundamentalist,
The correct translation shows that God is NOT angry everday.
Psalm 7:11 (Young's Literal Translation):
11God [is] a righteous judge, And He is not angry at all times.
As A.P. Adam's writes (thanks AbbasChild for showing this quote on another forum!)
Quote:
Psalm 7:11; "God judgeth the righteous and God is angry with the wicked every day." So it reads in the common version, but so it ought not to read. The correct reading is just the opposite, viz., "God is a righteous judge and He is not angry always." So, Young renders it, so also the Vulgate, Septuagint an Syriac. The original word for "God" is very similar to the word for "not." "El" means God; "al" means not; in the original there is not so much difference as in the English, as the vowels are very nearly alike. Doubtless these two words became confused and thus the error occurred; the corrected rendering agrees perfectly with such passages as Psa. 103:8,9; Isa. 57:16; Mic. 7:18,19.
The correct translation shows that God is NOT angry everday.
Psalm 7:11 (Young's Literal Translation):
11God [is] a righteous judge, And He is not angry at all times.
As A.P. Adam's writes (thanks AbbasChild for showing this quote on another forum!)
No offense my friend but I will stick to the New American Standard. I just don't see universalism in scripture but thanks. Young's Literal Translation is no different to me than the New World Translation
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