Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Meerkat, do you believe that angels, fallen or otherwise, and demons exist?
They exist but I don’t believe they are what Christianity has been led to believe they are
“Angels” “demons” are religious names for the “people/groups/entities” that try to lead the “church” astray - the scriptures are not literal, historical man-made things - they are inspired and relate to the kingdom which is “Heavenly” and rules over the “earthly”
Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel coming down out of Heaven having great authority, and the earth was lighted up from his glory.
Rev 18:2 And he cried in a strong, great voice, saying, Babylon the great has fallen! It has fallen, and it has become a dwelling-place of demons, and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean bird, even having been hated,
Rev 18:3 because of the wine of the anger of her fornication which all the nations have drunk, even the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her; and the merchants of the earth became rich from the power of her luxury.
I have been reading a lot of the early church fathers, tertullian is the one I am reading at the moment and I believe that the language used in the scriptures is to be cross-referenced with those FATHERS/DOCTORS/writers who had apostolic/prophetic offices who were taking the Greek, Roman writings aligning them with the Hebrew writings
We are to go back to the sources and understand them in the light of history as they were not talking to their generation but to ours where the religious and political “peoples” have fulfilled the prophetic things
We are to take notice of all the NAMES.... GENERATIONS...... SIGNS......... that relate to the TIMES.... SEASONS..... DAYS.......YEARS
The principal crime of the human race, the highest guilt charged upon the world, the whole procuring cause of judgment, is idolatry. For, although each single fault retains its own proper feature, although it is destined to judgment under its own proper name also, yet it is marked off under the general account of idolatry. Set aside names, examine works, the idolater is likewise a murderer. Do you inquire whom he has slain? If it contributes ought to the aggravation of the indictment, no stranger nor personal enemy, but his own self. By what snares? Those of his error. By what weapon? The offence done to God. By how many blows? As many as are his idolatries. He who affirms that the idolater perishes not, will affirm that the idolater has not committed murder. Further, you may recognize in the same crime adultery and fornication; for he who serves false gods is doubtless an adulterer of truth, because all falsehood is adultery. So, too, he is sunk in fornication. For who that is a fellow-worker with unclean spirits, does not stalk in general pollution and fornication? And thus it is that the Holy Scriptures use the designation of fornication in their upbraiding of idolatry. The essence of fraud, I take it, is, that any should seize what is another's, or refuse to another his due; and, of course, fraud done toward matt (sb man I think) is a name of greatest crime. Well, but idolatry does fraud to God, by refusing to Him, and conferring on others, His honours; so that to fraud it also conjoins contumely. But if fraud, just as much as fornication and adultery, entails death, then, in these cases, equally with the former, idolatry stands unacquitted of the impeachment of murder. After such crimes, so pernicious, so devouring of salvation, all other crimes also, after some manner, and separately disposed in order, find their own essence represented in idolatry. In it also are the cancupiscences of the world. For what solemnity of idolatry is without the circumstance of dress and ornament? In it are lasciviousnesses and drunkennesses; since it is, for the most part, for the sake of food, and stomach, and appetite, that these solemnities are frequented. In it is unrighteousness. For what more unrighteous than it, which knows not the Father of righteousness? In it also is vanity, since its whole system is vain. In it is mendacity, for its whole substance is false. Thus it comes to pass, that in idolatry all crimes are detected, and in all crimes idolatry. Even otherwise, since all faults savour of opposition to God, and there is nothing which savours of opposition to God which is not assigned to demons and unclean spirits, whose property idols are; doubtless, whoever commits a fault is chargeable with idolatry, for he does that which pertains to the proprietors of idols.
Indeed. But it's time to let go of the nonsense of demons, the devil or Satan.
For men have been foolish in their thinking, far too long in my humble opinion.
I agree Jerwade, We need to put them in their place which is in, around and from us - they are what the collective us have made from our imaginations when we take the writings of the ancients and fulfill them
They exist but I don’t believe they are what Christianity has been led to believe they are
“Angels” “demons” are religious names for the “people/groups/entities” that try to lead the “church” astray - the scriptures are not literal, historical man-made things - they are inspired and relate to the kingdom which is “Heavenly” and rules over the “earthly”
Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel coming down out of Heaven having great authority, and the earth was lighted up from his glory.
Rev 18:2 And he cried in a strong, great voice, saying, Babylon the great has fallen! It has fallen, and it has become a dwelling-place of demons, and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean bird, even having been hated,
Rev 18:3 because of the wine of the anger of her fornication which all the nations have drunk, even the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her; and the merchants of the earth became rich from the power of her luxury.
I have been reading a lot of the early church fathers, tertullian is the one I am reading at the moment and I believe that the language used in the scriptures is to be cross-referenced with those FATHERS/DOCTORS/writers who had apostolic/prophetic offices who were taking the Greek, Roman writings aligning them with the Hebrew writings
We are to go back to the sources and understand them in the light of history as they were not talking to their generation but to ours where the religious and political “peoples” have fulfilled the prophetic things
We are to take notice of all the NAMES.... GENERATIONS...... SIGNS......... that relate to the TIMES.... SEASONS..... DAYS.......YEARS
The principal crime of the human race, the highest guilt charged upon the world, the whole procuring cause of judgment, is idolatry. For, although each single fault retains its own proper feature, although it is destined to judgment under its own proper name also, yet it is marked off under the general account of idolatry. Set aside names, examine works, the idolater is likewise a murderer. Do you inquire whom he has slain? If it contributes ought to the aggravation of the indictment, no stranger nor personal enemy, but his own self. By what snares? Those of his error. By what weapon? The offence done to God. By how many blows? As many as are his idolatries. He who affirms that the idolater perishes not, will affirm that the idolater has not committed murder. Further, you may recognize in the same crime adultery and fornication; for he who serves false gods is doubtless an adulterer of truth, because all falsehood is adultery. So, too, he is sunk in fornication. For who that is a fellow-worker with unclean spirits, does not stalk in general pollution and fornication? And thus it is that the Holy Scriptures use the designation of fornication in their upbraiding of idolatry. The essence of fraud, I take it, is, that any should seize what is another's, or refuse to another his due; and, of course, fraud done toward matt (sb man I think) is a name of greatest crime. Well, but idolatry does fraud to God, by refusing to Him, and conferring on others, His honours; so that to fraud it also conjoins contumely. But if fraud, just as much as fornication and adultery, entails death, then, in these cases, equally with the former, idolatry stands unacquitted of the impeachment of murder. After such crimes, so pernicious, so devouring of salvation, all other crimes also, after some manner, and separately disposed in order, find their own essence represented in idolatry. In it also are the cancupiscences of the world. For what solemnity of idolatry is without the circumstance of dress and ornament? In it are lasciviousnesses and drunkennesses; since it is, for the most part, for the sake of food, and stomach, and appetite, that these solemnities are frequented. In it is unrighteousness. For what more unrighteous than it, which knows not the Father of righteousness? In it also is vanity, since its whole system is vain. In it is mendacity, for its whole substance is false. Thus it comes to pass, that in idolatry all crimes are detected, and in all crimes idolatry. Even otherwise, since all faults savour of opposition to God, and there is nothing which savours of opposition to God which is not assigned to demons and unclean spirits, whose property idols are; doubtless, whoever commits a fault is chargeable with idolatry, for he does that which pertains to the proprietors of idols.
I'm not clear on what you're saying. Are you saying that you believe that angels and demons are simply men who are trying to lead the church astray?
Concerning those heavenly Angels, who were not driven out of heaven in the days of Enoch, but had willingly abandoned their own original habitat and in the days of Jared the father of Enoch, began to defile themselves with the daughters of men, we read in Genesis 6: 2; KJV---that they were ‘The Sons of God.’
Jude verse 8; The Angels also which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Those Son of God were reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day, in the days of Enoch, and should not be confused with Satan and his Angels who were cast out of heaven by Michael. That Satan is not chained in prison until immediately before the thousand year rule of Christ, which is still in our future.
The book of Enoch the prophet, translated by R.H.Charles, which was published in 2003, reads as follows; 15: 8-12; "And now the giants who are produced from spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits on the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their (Dead) bodies; because they are born from men and from the Holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; they shall be evil spirits on earth and evil spirits shall they be called.
As for the spirits in heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.
And the spirits of the giants, afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction upon the earth, and cause troubles: they take no food, (but nevertheless hunger) and thirst, and cause offences.
And those spirits shall rise up against men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them."
Those evil Spirits which were born from the dead bodies of the giant children born of the sons of God and the daughters of man, are called demons.
The demon children were the Nephlim. One of the reasons God flooded the world in Noahs day.
Who is 'all?' All do not believe that demons and fallen angels are one and the same.
Yes, I know there is much confusion on this earth concerning the matters of God. Alls it takes to find truth is to LISTEN TO JESUS. Like this super ultra important teaching found at Matthew 6:33-- Therefore, keep on seeking- FIRST- the kingdom and his ( YHVH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality-Matt 6)---
I'm not clear on what you're saying. Are you saying that you believe that angels and demons are simply men who are trying to lead the church astray?
In essence yes, but not just individually I think, context is needed when exploring, understanding scriptures, and also using our reasoning skills which we are given for a purpose
In my personal, earthly life I have never experienced an “angel” or a “demon” however I have had déjà vu moments but it was more related to certain places that I felt I had seen/experienced before and it was like an overlay which I couldn’t quite grasp. Christians generally only know about “angels” and “demons” because the scriptures say so but the scriptures purpose was never to let humans know about ancient history of king David, or Israel taken to Egypt, or the Jews taken to Babylon, or Angelic “sons of God” beings copulating with human women, or Adam being the first literal human being, they were inspirations that were written for posterity... the future, the kingdom .... in symbolic form, which we are told in Genesis and repeatedly throughout
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let luminaries be in the expanse of the heavens, to divide between the day and the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years.
The scriptures to me at this stage seem to be more of a Encyclopedia where the data of names, times, dates etc are in the Greek, Roman, Hebrew writings, that are the base for the scriptures, but we need to be careful because we are told that the scribes, prophets and priests have generally corrupted things
Jer 8:8 How do you say, We are wise, and the Law of Jehovah is with us? Behold, the lying pen of the scribes has certainly worked deceit.
Jer 8:9 The wise are ashamed; they are terrified and are captured. Behold, they have rejected the Word of Jehovah, and what wisdom is theirs?
Jer 8:10 So I will give their wives to others, their fields to those who shall inherit. For everyone from the least even to the greatest cuts off a profit. From the prophet even to the priest, everyone deals falsely.
The early church fathers, Josephus and other writers of the same period have left us lots of writings which contain data about the “times” but generally people think that everything the ancients wrote was about them and historical even though the same sources talk about the “gods” and that the purpose was for posterity, there has been a mixing of “mythos” “sacred” “spiritual” things with mundane, literal, fleshly things
Rom 15:3 For also Christ did not please Himself, but even as it has been written, "The curses of those cursing You fell on Me." LXX-Psa. 68:10; MT-Psa. 69:9
Rom 15:4 For whatever things were written before were written for our instruction, that through patience and encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
Rom 15:5 And may the God of patience and encouragement give to you to mind the same thing among one another according to Christ Jesus,
Rom 15:6 that with one accord and with one mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 15:7 Because of this, receive one another as Christ also received us, to the glory of God.
Christ the Hope of Jews and Gentiles
Rom 15:8 And I say, Jesus Christ has become a minister of circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises of the fathers,
Rom 15:9 and for the nations to glorify God for mercy, even as it has been written, "Because of this I will confess to You in the nations, and I will give praise to Your name." Psa. 18:49
Deu 4:15 Therefore you shall carefully watch over your souls, for you have not seen any likeness in the day Jehovah spoke to you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
Deu 4:16 that you not deal corruptly, and make for yourselves a graven image, a likeness of any figure, the form of a male or female,
Deu 4:17 the form of any animal in the earth; the form of any winged bird that flies in the heavens;
Deu 4:18 the form of any creeping thing on the ground; the form of any fish in the waters under the earth;
Deu 4:19 and that you not lift up your eyes towards the heavens and shall see the sun, and the heavens, and you be drawn away and worship them, and serve them; which Jehovah your God has allotted to all the peoples under all the heavens.
Deu 4:20 And Jehovah has taken you, and has brought you forth out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people to Him, an inheritance, as it is this day.
I see lots of timing phrases in the scriptures .... and lots of signs.....
In essence yes, but not just individually I think, context is needed when exploring, understanding scriptures, and also using our reasoning skills which we are given for a purpose
In my personal, earthly life I have never experienced an “angel” or a “demon” however I have had déjà vu moments but it was more related to certain places that I felt I had seen/experienced before and it was like an overlay which I couldn’t quite grasp. Christians generally only know about “angels” and “demons” because the scriptures say so but the scriptures purpose was never to let humans know about ancient history of king David, or Israel taken to Egypt, or the Jews taken to Babylon, or Angelic “sons of God” beings copulating with human women, or Adam being the first literal human being, they were inspirations that were written for posterity... the future, the kingdom .... in symbolic form, which we are told in Genesis and repeatedly throughout
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let luminaries be in the expanse of the heavens, to divide between the day and the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years.
The scriptures to me at this stage seem to be more of a Encyclopedia where the data of names, times, dates etc are in the Greek, Roman, Hebrew writings, that are the base for the scriptures, but we need to be careful because we are told that the scribes, prophets and priests have generally corrupted things
Jer 8:8 How do you say, We are wise, and the Law of Jehovah is with us? Behold, the lying pen of the scribes has certainly worked deceit.
Jer 8:9 The wise are ashamed; they are terrified and are captured. Behold, they have rejected the Word of Jehovah, and what wisdom is theirs?
Jer 8:10 So I will give their wives to others, their fields to those who shall inherit. For everyone from the least even to the greatest cuts off a profit. From the prophet even to the priest, everyone deals falsely.
The early church fathers, Josephus and other writers of the same period have left us lots of writings which contain data about the “times” but generally people think that everything the ancients wrote was about them and historical even though the same sources talk about the “gods” and that the purpose was for posterity, there has been a mixing of “mythos” “sacred” “spiritual” things with mundane, literal, fleshly things
Rom 15:3 For also Christ did not please Himself, but even as it has been written, "The curses of those cursing You fell on Me." LXX-Psa. 68:10; MT-Psa. 69:9
Rom 15:4 For whatever things were written before were written for our instruction, that through patience and encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
Rom 15:5 And may the God of patience and encouragement give to you to mind the same thing among one another according to Christ Jesus,
Rom 15:6 that with one accord and with one mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 15:7 Because of this, receive one another as Christ also received us, to the glory of God.
Christ the Hope of Jews and Gentiles
Rom 15:8 And I say, Jesus Christ has become a minister of circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises of the fathers,
Rom 15:9 and for the nations to glorify God for mercy, even as it has been written, "Because of this I will confess to You in the nations, and I will give praise to Your name." Psa. 18:49
Deu 4:15 Therefore you shall carefully watch over your souls, for you have not seen any likeness in the day Jehovah spoke to you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
Deu 4:16 that you not deal corruptly, and make for yourselves a graven image, a likeness of any figure, the form of a male or female,
Deu 4:17 the form of any animal in the earth; the form of any winged bird that flies in the heavens;
Deu 4:18 the form of any creeping thing on the ground; the form of any fish in the waters under the earth;
Deu 4:19 and that you not lift up your eyes towards the heavens and shall see the sun, and the heavens, and you be drawn away and worship them, and serve them; which Jehovah your God has allotted to all the peoples under all the heavens.
Deu 4:20 And Jehovah has taken you, and has brought you forth out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people to Him, an inheritance, as it is this day.
I see lots of timing phrases in the scriptures .... and lots of signs.....
It is telling you not to keep the solstices, not to be like the nations that the people of God be separated and peculiar to God out of all the people of the earth, God brought out of the furnace of Egypt(The World).
God's people accepted the law as the Ketubah it was, they are not allowed to be like the nations, there is no way for them to assimilate to being Gentiles, there is ONLY Gentiles added to THEM, and that aint what Christians do.
Genesis 18:1-8;Genesis 19:1-3 When they materialized they ate and drank with men. There's no reason to believe they couldn't also engage in sex. It's a perverse action that some of these angels chose which is why Jude 6 and 7 indicate these angels no longer can materialize and why the action they engaged in (eg leaving their proper station to engage in sex) was compared to the sin men in Sodom committed. Those in Sodom also having sought flesh for an unnatural use.
1 Peter 3:19, 20 and 2 Peter 2:4,5 link disobedient angels with Noah's day
Yes, the flood was attributed to the wickedness of man. Just like the Bible also shows the world is in the power of the wicked one. Just like it shows us that we are imperfect and that there is a way to worship- with spirit and truth. Bad government, bad religion, mankind's imperfection and Satan and his allies = messed up world
No need to make interpretations. Bible texts and commentaries from ancient Jews give us an idea of how people of that era thought about the subject. You're free however to believe in the superiority of how you understand things. I'm just offering an alternate view for those who may be interested.
If that is accurate...its only because GOD made it so, or better yet, allowed it to be this way!
If you knew a dangerous person and kicked them out of your house....how much sense would it be to ALLOW that person access to your children?!!
Or another scenario, a dangerous child killer is creeping around your childs school...you tell him to leave and kick him off the property...how much sense would there be, in then ALLOWING this person continued access and influence to your children?
Yes, I know there is much confusion on this earth concerning the matters of God. Alls it takes to find truth is to LISTEN TO JESUS. Like this super ultra important teaching found at Matthew 6:33-- Therefore, keep on seeking- FIRST- the kingdom and his ( YHVH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality-Matt 6)---
Y
It is telling you not to keep the solstices, not to be like the nations that the people of God be separated and peculiar to God out of all the people of the earth, God brought out of the furnace of Egypt(The World).
God's people accepted the law as the Ketubah it was, they are not allowed to be like the nations, there is no way for them to assimilate to being Gentiles, there is ONLY Gentiles added to THEM, and that aint what Christians do.
I always find it interesting when someone quotes the "church fathers", apparently unaware that they were Greeks, philosophers, and the ONLY SCRIPTURES available for about the first 200 years, were the ones the Jews had. Blessings....
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
