Example of a Dead Church (Jesus Christ, recall, bishop, morals)
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Why not ask why he does not ever see any real miracles........ a lot of churches claim them but never have real ones because none of them are worshiping God in truth and in spirit (if they were they would be seeing miracles that could be verified like mine is (are) through medical records)
I'll ask him.
I guess if I'm thankful for anything related to my religious upbringing, it's that I was NOT raised in Pentecostalism.
I guess if I'm thankful for anything related to my religious upbringing, it's that I was NOT raised in Pentecostalism.
Some Pentecostal churches did have one advantage over the fundamental and extremely conservative churches such as I was raised in. Simply put they believed in the baptism of the Holy Spirit that has now spread to most of the mainline churches, The disadvantage was not all spirits are holy and a lot of pentecostal churches and clergy took on some pretty bad ones
Last summer I went up to see in person an online friend who was having health problems, Just so happened he went to Brownsville Assembly of God in Pensacola that is known for the Brownsville revival that I believe took place around 2000. As soon as I walked into this place I knew things were not right and when at the end of the service one of the pastors who was laying hands on everyone one called me me up to the stage but I refused to do so........ they were highly insulted and displeased with me especially since I do have a reputation amongst some circuits
These folks were filled with spirits but not good ones. The next day my friend could not make the meeting we had planned because he was sick. My response to him was if I had let the same man lay hands on me as he had let lay hands on him, i would be just as sick as he was......... so much for that friendship as most Christians are quick to point fingers at others go off the wall when someone points out the three fingers pointing back at them
Zhatsman :"Jesus said LOVE GOD and LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR..NOTHING said about OBEYING??"
Easy to say. Can you give Ch and v? Not OT, please. Christian apologists constantly tell us that Jesus established a new covenant where none of that Old Stuff counted unless he endorsed it.
Ok so I'll start to address this and see how far I get with the time I have, it can be difficult to organize my thoughts while watching my daughter. First, there are a few foundational concepts that must be understood and I am going to give a statement to clarify my position on the commandments.
1: The church is not a separate entity from the faithful of Israel. Those in Christ are grafted into Israel (Romans 11), to become one flock with one shepherd (John 10). I will not go much more into this but here are links which discuss dual covenant theology, replacement theology, remnant theology etc. When one studies this with the desire to find the truth regardless of their currently held or popularly held beliefs, they will inevitably come to the conclusion that remnant theology is accurate. Who is the remnant or faithful of Israel? Those who love and trust God, repent of/shun sin and whose faith is shown to be true by the fruits in their lives.
2: Any change in God's laws must be specifically supported by scripture. It's extremely common for people to simply assume "everything has changed because Christ changed it" or something along those lines and they will go their entire lives without actually studying these things for themselves. Their presuppositions are then read into the text, skewing their understanding of what is actually being said. We can see the same thing occur in the scientific community all the time, it has all been built upon incorrect presuppositions and it suffers greatly because of it. Mainstream scientists spend their whole lives analyzing unlimited amounts of data, conjuring up all sorts of little theories (anyone could do this) to support their firmly held delusions regardless of what the evidence plainly points to. Whether it be about the hand of a mouse in Peru or a group of stars in the milky way etc.
3:The laws of God are spiritual in nature. Yes they condemn us for all have broken them, yet the laws themselves are not evil. On the contrary, they outline God's definition of love and devotion and we can be sure that they are the embodiment of knowledge and truth as Paul states in Romans 2:
"17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law."
Statement 1:
While I believe the laws of God still stand, most probably think that they are not applicable or have been done away with or only apply to Jews. I do not believe that people will be condemned to death for not observing all of them, but that they all have a purpose and that it is good to learn from them and observe them. There are laws that are absolutely vital and those are Love God with all your heart mind and strength, You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and You shall love your neighbor as yourself. If anyone makes a habit of willfully breaking these, they are not abiding in Christ and need to actually repent (turn from sin).
Before everyone starts shouting "Legalism!" and other nonsense. I am not saying that anyone is saved by perfect law keeping. Nobody is and any attempt to earn salvation apart from Christ will be in vain. What I am saying is that we are saved by faith in Christ, but faith apart from obedience/love/"the Spirit" is completely dead and worthless. When one is born of the Spirit and abiding in Christ it is visible in their lives, in their words and in their deeds. There is no way into the sheepfold other than through Christ, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber."
And Christ made it abundantly clear:
John 15 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
So with that said, what did Christ really teach? Let's start with the sermon on the mount:
Matthew 5 "17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
Now to most Christians it seems, this passage is the central evidence that Christ came to fulfill and thereafter remove any accountability on their part for observing them. Mainstream Christianity unfortunately teaches that the believer becomes "clothed in Christ" which is some type of supernatural cloak which hides all their sin from God's eyes no matter what. However the word translated as fulfill is "pleroo", it's meaning is as follows:
πληρόω plēróō, play-ro'-o; from G4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:—accomplish, × after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.
We can see that it's actual definition is a bit more complex than to simply fulfill. He also came to fully teach the laws which is quite obvious when we continue to analyze His teachings. Not only that, but He goes as far as stating that those who teach the commandments will be great in the kingdom of God. Another very important thing to realize is that He said, "whoever would relax these commandments will be least in heaven", we know Christ is going to be the greatest in heaven so we can safely assume that He will not be relaxing the commandments and teaching others to do the same. But why would He need to fully teach them? Didn't Israel already know and observe all God's commandments? Didn't they have Pharisees and Sadducees who devoted their lives to studying and teaching them? What more needs to be said or what are they not understanding? That brings us to another essential concept:
The letter of the law vs the Spirit of the law
When one obeys the letter of the law but not the spirit, one is obeying the literal interpretation of the words (the "letter") of the law, but not necessarily the intent of those who wrote the law. Conversely, when one obeys the spirit of the law but not the letter, one is doing what the authors of the law intended, though not necessarily adhering to the literal wording.
"Law" may refer to any kind of rule. Intentionally following the letter of the law but not the spirit may be accomplished through exploiting technicalities, loopholes, and ambiguous language.
We can read the talmud and other traditions of the elders, Pharisees and Sadducees and see how the followed the "letter of the law", even adding to and expounding on it greatly yet completely missed the Spirit of the law/God's true intentions of the law. They appeared righteous yet inwardly were wicked.
When the letter of the law is observed by the flesh (natural unregenerate man), it does not produce the righteousness God desires. Only by being born of the Spirit can we truly begin to uphold the spirit of the law as it was intended.
Let's now continue the sermon on the mount to read Christ fully teach the laws:
Anger "21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."
Lust 27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
Divorce 31 “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Retaliation 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
At hearing the last one, some people may say "Wait! Isn't Jesus relaxing the commandment in Exodus 21 "an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth?" This is a good question and the answer is no. That law, among others was given to Israel by God for governing their nation. It was never intended to be used as justification for vigilantism or to be the basis for their personal relationships or interactions.
Love Your Enemies 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Again we may ask, is Christ relaxing or changing the law about "hating your enemy"? No there is no law to hate your enemy, on the contrary the OT repeatedly tells us to deal righteously with all people including enemies. See Proverbs 25:21-22 among others. The origin of this phrase can most certainly be attributed to the scribes and other interpreters of the law. Perhaps because the law says, "love your neighbor" they took that to mean that they should not love those who are not their neighbor.
As much as I would like to go through the entirety of the sermon on the mount, I will not be able to.
It goes on to discuss:
Giving to the Needy
The Lord's Prayer
Fasting
Lay Up Treasures in Heaven
Do Not Be Anxious
Judging Others
Ask, and It Will Be Given
The Golden Rule
A Tree and Its Fruit
I Never Knew You
Build Your House on the Rock
On second thought, let's consider a couple more
The Golden rule: "12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
For those who believe God's laws are evil, archaic etc... Christ tells us that the Law and Prophets sum up what it means to truly love your neighbor as yourself as well as giving a warning for those who would disregard these laws.
A Tree and Its Fruit "15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits."
I Never Knew You "21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
In both a tree and its fruit and I never knew you, Christ tells us that it will be plainly evident who belongs to Him and the faithful (the bride of Christ/true Israel). We will know them by their fruits. Do they cherish the instruction of the Lord? Are they led by the Spirit? It doesn't matter if they have Abraham as their father (Matthew 2:8) or if they call Christ Lord. It doesn't matter if they proclaim Christ on the street corners, are active in the church/synagogue, if they prophesy or perform exorcisms. All that really matters is this: Do they abide in Christ (John 15), do they love God and their neighbor and do they keep themselves from Lawlessness (the willful practice of breaking of God's laws)? If not they will be cut down and destroyed in the lake of fire.
Did Jesus have a problem with the Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes because they followed God's laws?
No! Exactly the opposite, they didn't even understand God's laws. Instead they mangled them, added to them, forced their misunderstandings onto all the rest of Israel. They They used them wrongfully, using them as a means to control the masses and to elevate themselves above the rest of the population. Their interpretations of the law always leaned towards absolute strictness and not love/mercy. Christ spent much time rebuking them. Let's see what He said:
Matthew 5 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 6 2 “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
16 “And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
Matthew 12 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, “Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.” 3 He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: 4 how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? 6 I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. 7 And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”
Some use that one as evidence that Christ did away with the Sabbath. That is obviously not the case, He repeatedly teaches the Sabbath and corrects the Pharisees on it's true observance/purpose.
9 He went on from there and entered their synagogue. 10 And a man was there with a withered hand. And they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse him. 11 He said to them, “Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” 13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And the man stretched it out, and it was restored, healthy like the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.
Matthew 15 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” 3 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ 5 But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” 6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
8 “‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
9 in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
10 And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.” 12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” 13 He answered, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. 14 Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” 15 But Peter said to him, “Explain the parable to us.” 16 And he said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled? 18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”
This one of the central passages used to teach that all food is clean. But what is really being said? The Pharisees are asking Christ why He and the disciples are not following the traditions of the elders. Christ then quotes Isaiah, "teaching the commandments of men" as if they were from God. He is not teaching against God's commandments but explaining why their traditions are faulty and not of God. The creatures that God created for human consumption and sacrificial purposes have been known since the beginning. Noah took two of each unclean animal and seven of each clean animal onto the ark. When the flood finally subsided, Noah offered up sacrifices to God. Then God declared that from that point on, people could consume animals. We can know with certainty that Noah did not sacrifice or consume any of the unclean animals, to do so would have ended it's species. There are many other instances of people consuming/sacrificing only clean animals. It was so ingrained into the minds of the Israelites that unclean animals are not food, that they never would have thought He was talking about eating unclean animals. If either the Pharisees or the disciples had any inkling that Christ was doing away with something as fundamental as this, they most certainly would have said something about it. Instead, it appears the Pharisees just slinked away. We will see more evidence of this later.
Matthew 16 5 When the disciples reached the other side, they had forgotten to bring any bread. 6 Jesus said to them, “Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 7 And they began discussing it among themselves, saying, “We brought no bread.” 8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, “O you of little faith, why are you discussing among yourselves the fact that you have no bread? 9 Do you not yet perceive? Do you not remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many baskets you gathered? 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many baskets you gathered? 11 How is it that you fail to understand that I did not speak about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Matthew 23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.
This passage is very interesting. Jesus is telling the crowds to listen to and observe what is taught from the seat of Moses. Again people will say this only applied to people before the cross, but that is just dumb. He didn't spend His whole ministry teaching things that would be obsolete immediately after He died. Again people will say that this was only meant for Israel, but gentiles are grafted into Israel to become one flock and when you consider the Great Commission:
Matthew 28 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[b] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
You can see that Jesus told His disciples to teach all the nations to observe all the things that He commanded them.
Matthew 23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. 8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? 18 And you say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.’ 19 You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. 22 And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
I will have to stop here for today. We pretty much covered all of Matthew and Jesus has yet to change any commandments. He fully taught them all, reinforced the importance of all the God's commandments and even commanded people to observe/do what is taught from the seat of Moses. There are more passages from the life and teachings of Christ I want to try getting through tomorrow but the outcome is the same. So that will leave us with both the Old Testament and the Gospels/Christ all in agreement about God's commandments. Then we can start on Acts and the Epistles of Paul.
It seems that we need a definition of 'Obeying'. Obeying what? Obeying God by honouring his laws? But Jesus debunked the sabbath, put his church ahead of his family and also, despite his remarks about doing what the teachers of the law say, junks the clean food laws specifically. So you are supposed to do what Jesus says, rather than the OT. Indeed in the Sermon in Matthew, he supplants a lot of the old laws with a 'love your neighbour' message.
Doesn't that suggest that 'Obeying' is not the right term? It is more urging people to act in a particular way if they want to be saved. Perhaps the difference is that with Obeying there are laws laid down that you are supposed to follow, but Jesus' urgings are more of a moral code than a system of laws to be obeyed. What do you think?
It seems that we need a definition of 'Obeying'. Obeying what? Obeying God by honouring his laws? But Jesus debunked the sabbath, put his church ahead of his family and also, despite his remarks about doing what the teachers of the law say, junks the clean food laws specifically. So you are supposed to do what Jesus says, rather than the OT. Indeed in the Sermon in Matthew, he supplants a lot of the old laws with a 'love your neighbour' message.
Doesn't that suggest that 'Obeying' is not the right term? It is more urging people to act in a particular way if they want to be saved. Perhaps the difference is that with Obeying there are laws laid down that you are supposed to follow, but Jesus' urgings are more of a moral code than a system of laws to be obeyed. What do you think?
I just addressed most of these things. I will show that the Bible reinforces them even more tomorrow or Saturday. The laws concerning the governance of Israel are not abolished, instead God removed His system of government from over the physical nation of Israel. Capital punishment for example, by the time Christ came into His ministry Israel was under Roman rule and was no longer allowed to execute anyone. (John 18)
However we can see that the spirit of the law still has significance to those who comprise the faithful of Israel as Paul quotes from the OT:
1 Corinthians 5 9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
Deuteronomy 17 On the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses the one who is to die shall be put to death; a person shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness. 7 The hand of the witnesses shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
I'm sorry but I can't see that you are dealing with the question at all. Now I know that you are transporting the Judging under the Law(for Jews)/judging under faith (for gentiles) from the contradiction thread.
That ties in nicely with this idea of Obeying and just doing what Jesus says. The attraction of the Mosaic law is that it sets out in detail what to do in order not to transgress. It is also what makes it totally unacceptable for gentiles (including me)
The Gospel message is more of a problem because it is so vague. Christians get over this with a sort of blanket appeal to love. (in fact your long post is an endorsement of this vague replacing of laws to obey with a vague 'Do Good' that is the "Law" in "Spirit". This is to me bambozlement by equivocation and is designed to fool people into believing that Jesus could abolish the law without actually abolishing it because he observed it in Spirit or 'Fulfilled' it will do. That of course gets away from the idea of Obeying(1).
Where Paul gets mixed up it seems to me is in this idea that Jesus -faith saves, even for Jews and more it releases Jews from obligation to Obey the Mosaic law. This isn't what we get in Romans where Paul says that Jews are obliged to observe the law.But later it seems that Jesusfaith exempts even Jews from the law, so how can they be judged on the basis of the Law? I think Paul has indeed contradicted himself because of his hurry to get from saying that the law cannot cave but Jesus faith can, to the law is not needed - not even for Jews - because of Jesusfaith.
There are other problems. Paul dickers with this idea of faith vs works that has been a debating point in religion from the start. The letter of James (and I have often wondered whether it really could be the only reliable writing of one of Jesus' followers) argues that faith without works is invalid.
We know that Faith alone is never void of the need to behave well. The idea is - and Paul had this idea, too - that simply having the Faith will make one behave well naturally. In fact Paul found that this didn't happen and that his communities were getting up to all sorts of stuff which to them was Ok because they were justified by faith, not works.
Paul then gets into an idea that faith can save but sinning can unsave you. Thus of course Works is part of the faith package. This gets very complex and a bit fishy with a system of repentance that can get you right with God again, but whether the repentance involves repairing the damage or just confessing that one is a sinner is enough is not clear.
Also whether repeated repentance loses effect or whether one can just keep on doing it and just be absolved all the time they profess faith. Whatever, faith without works is plainly unworkable.
(1) The "Obey!Obey!Obey!" shouting of one minister in a you tube I watched is something else entirely.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-16-2015 at 08:27 AM..
I'm sorry but I can't see that you are dealing with the question at all. Now I know that you are transporting the Judging under the Law(for Jews)/judging under faith (for gentiles) from the contradiction thread.
What do you mean by this? Are you talking about capital punishment?
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That ties in nicely with this idea of Obeying and just doing what Jesus says. The attraction of the Mosaic law is that it sets out in detail what to do in order not to transgress. It is also what makes it totally unacceptable for gentiles (including me)
Can you elaborate on how it is unacceptable?
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Christians get over this with a sort of blanket appeal to love. (in fact your long post is an endorsement of this vague replacing of laws to obey with a vague 'Do Good' that is the "Law" in "Spirit". This is to me bambozlement by equivocation and is designed to fool people into believing that Jesus could abolish the law without actually abolishing it because he observed it in Spirit or 'Fulfilled' it will do. That of course gets away from the idea of Obeying.
My post so far has mainly been to show that Christ did not change any of His laws, the gospels are a continuation of the OT.
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Where Paul gets mixed up it seems to me is in this idea that Jesus -faith saves, even for Jews and more it releases Jews from obligation to Obey the Mosaic law. This isn't what we get in Romans where Paul says that Jews are obliged to observe the law.But later it seems that Jesusfaith exempts even Jews from the law, so how can they be judged on the basis of the Law? I think Paul has indeed contradicted himself because of his hurry to get from saying that the law cannot cave but Jesus faith can, to the law is not needed - not even for Jews - because of Jesus faith.
There are other problems. Paul dickers with this idea of faith vs works that has been a debating point in religion from the start. The letter of James (and I have often wondered whether it really could be the only reliable writing of one of Jesus' followers) argues that faith without works is invalid.
We know that Faith alone is never void of the need to behave well. The idea is - and Paul had this idea, too - that simply having the Faith will make one behave well naturally. In fact Paul found that this didn't happen and that his communities were getting up to all sorts of stuff which to them was Ok because they were justified by faith, not works.
Paul then gets into an idea that faith can save but sinning can unsave you. Thus of course Works is part of the faith package. This gets very complex and a bit fishy with a system of repentance that can get you right with God again, but whether the repentance involves repairing the damage or just confessing that one is a sinner is enough is not clear.
Also whether repeated repentance loses effect or whether one can just keep on doing it and just be absolved all the time they profess faith. Whatever, faith without works is plainly unworkable.
This is where I got mixed up too for a few years. No matter how much I sought to figure out what was going on between the OT, Christ and Paul I just couldn't quite do it. The more I searched the more uncertain I became. I simply gave up looking for a couple years. Then one day I received new information and everything began to make sense.
What do you mean by this? Are you talking about capital punishment?
Can you elaborate on how it is unacceptable?
My post so far has mainly been to show that Christ did not change any of His laws, the gospels are a continuation of the OT.
This is where I got mixed up too for a few years. No matter how much I sought to figure out what was going on between the OT, Christ and Paul I just couldn't quite do it. The more I searched the more uncertain I became. I simply gave up looking for a couple years. Then one day I received new information and everything began to make sense.
The wording of the law did not change but how we are to use it as a schoolteacher to bring us to Christ is an entirely new way of applying it. In the the old covenant the law condemned sin but in the new covenant the same law points the way to overcoming sin, something that the old covenant could not accomplish with the law because it was weak to the flesh
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
The wording of the law did not change but how we are to use it as a schoolteacher to bring us to Christ is an entirely new way of applying it. In the the old covenant the law condemned sin but in the new covenant the same law points the way to overcoming sin, something that the old covenant could not accomplish with the law because it was weak to the flesh
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Dear live,
Yeshua was the "light" in as he took away the veil covering the OT. He was the "way"/path, in that he walked the walk of the OT, and his followers were to follow him on that path. As for Hebrews, written by some unknown writer, who apparently has a close connection to Paul of tribe of Benjamin, is the "path that leads to destruction" (Mt 7:13), which the "many" follow, and a product of the false apostles who "come to you in sheep's clothing", but inwardly ravenous wolves (Gen 49:27).
The "new covenant" described in Jeremiah 31, is for the house of Judah and the house of Israel, and it hasn't been fulfilled, for people are still trying to teach their neighbor to "know the lord". (Jer 31:34)
What do you mean by this? Are you talking about capital punishment?
No. I'm talking about the promise of Abraham.
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Can you elaborate on how it is unacceptable?
Yep. I love bacon. And prawn curry.
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My post so far has mainly been to show that Christ did not change any of His laws, the gospels are a continuation of the OT.
My posts here and there have demonstrated that Jesus is represented as pretty much tossing the OT laws in the Bin and replacing them with his own rules, some of which borrow from the OT and some (like the Golden rule), from Jewish Rabbinical teaching. The touchstone case is Jesus Sabbath -breaking. That is absolutely counter to the OT. The funny thing is that Christianity now makes a Shibboleth of Sabbath -keeping - contrary to Jesus' exhortations - but kept on the wrong day.
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This is where I got mixed up too for a few years. No matter how much I sought to figure out what was going on between the OT, Christ and Paul I just couldn't quite do it. The more I searched the more uncertain I became. I simply gave up looking for a couple years. Then one day I received new information and everything began to make sense.
It did for me too. But I suspect that the sense it makes to you is probably not the sense it makes to me.
Anyway, the point of this (as i recall) is that Jesus supposedly rolled up and replaced to OT laws with some of his own which were not so much about obeying day to day laws observances and procedures, but about a more relaxed and less legalistic lovingness.
So, that seems to be just where we are with this Swedish lesbian bishop. She is taking the Church a step further along the path from harsh legalism. Which is what we are getting from the Fundies. I need not labour the analogy.
It might be said that she is not the son of God. Neither was Paul, but he kick -started the whole Gentile Church. We don't need Jesus to show up again or even someone to say they got their instructions from Jesus on a day trip to the Third heaven. To paraphrase John, Some saw how to move on to a better way when God in man's form explained it to them. Kudos to those who see how to move onto a better way without Jesus having to come and tell them.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-17-2015 at 09:26 AM..
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Can you give Ch and v? Not OT, please.
Christian apologists constantly tell us that Jesus established a new covenant where none of that Old Stuff counted unless he endorsed it.
But I suspect that the sense it makes to you is probably not the sense it makes to me.