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Did you read the post? Comment 16 proves your second point.
Also, learn what 'burden of proof' is. The burden of proof is on you to prove it,, not for me to disprove it. You say they're real, show me the evidence!
You seem to be attempting to take a high ground. One you can't reach. You're laughable
No, the burden of proof is on you to actually prove Jesus never existed. Just because you said He doesn't does not mean I have the burden to prove He did exist. The burden lies upon you to prove He didn't. Likewise Noah's ark. YOu seem to be attempting to take the low ground, one you are wallowing in. You're laughable.
You assert Jesus existed! Fact
You assert Noah's Ark exists! Fact
I don't believe the CLAIM Jesus existed.
I don't believe the CLAIM Noahs Ark existed.
Now, I've proven THIS Ark isn't Noah's Ark, and I don't accept there will be another, anywhere! See comment 16 (Again).
The burden of proof, which you don't seem to have grasped the concept of is not even close to being on me. If I said I believed/know that Santa, Unicorns or other mythical creatures exist, the burden of proof would be on me to prove that, with evidence. Yet, there isn't paper on paper with evidence to claim they don't exist, is there?! You, see, it's not on those who don't accept to prove you wrong, it's for you to prove yourself right.
I don't accept God, no matter if it is yours or any of the other 3000, I don't accept the claim. It is therefore not for me to prove why I don't believe he exists, it's on you to prove he existed.
Do you understand this, or do I have to simply things down even further?
I'm taking a very central ground, and watching as you fall from your horse.
Also a nice passage for your mockery (How very Christian of you): “Scoffer” is the name of the arrogant, haughty man who acts with arrogant pride. (Proverbs 21:24)
You assert Jesus existed! Fact
You assert Noah's Ark exists! Fact
I don't believe the CLAIM Jesus existed.
I don't believe the CLAIM Noahs Ark existed.
....Wow..Its one thing to believe the Ark is a myth..but not believing Jesus even existed?! How about doing the 5 minutes worth of research it takes to find out what percentage of historical scholars (both secular and religious) believe that Jesus actually existed?...I'll help you out: Its anywhere from 82% to 98%. I think Southern Matt, Western Matt, and Eastern Matt are all laughing at you right now.(rimshot)
....Wow..Its one thing to believe the Ark is a myth..but not believing Jesus even existed?! How about doing the 5 minutes worth of research it takes to find out what percentage of historical scholars (both secular and religious) believe that Jesus actually existed?...I'll help you out: Its anywhere from 82% to 98%. I think Southern Matt, Western Matt, and Eastern Matt are all laughing at you right now.(rimshot)
Pahahahaha, utter tripe. Please provide this astounding fact?
I'm also baffled at your astonishment for me not believing in Jesus. How about you do the five minutes of research and look up Science. It's crazy what you will find, but, crazy as it may be, it is all real. Unlike you mythical magic man.
What the...? This is a Christian forum where Christians discuss Christianity. If you don't like it, make a thread in the Atheist form about how dumb Christians are, we don't care! But here, we like to discuss Biblical TRUTHS.
To me it's about how those "truths" affect those who aren't Christian. From the religion and spirituality thread, this post by an atheist--who absolutely nails the vast majority of "christians" for what they really are:
Quote:
You might be surprised to learn, then, that the nations with the best social programs are also the most secular with low levels of religiosity. America, with its unusually high levels of religiosity has perhaps the worst social programs of any nation that has them. And in many cases, we have those programs despite Christians, not because of them. If you take a trip to the political forums, I'm willing to bet you'd find that those who consider themselves Christian are over there right now arguing against programs for the poor and disabled, saying things like, "If you don't work, you don't eat" and other standard arguments.
We are the ONLY industrialized nation without nationalized health care - no, Americans still have to figure out how they're going to pay for their treatments whether through exhorbitantly expensive insurance premiums or paying out of pocket for exhorbitantly expensive tests and procedures. That's why the World Health Organization ranks America's health care system at 37th - which places us dead last among 1st World nations, and even some 2nd World nations beat us out.
Not to mention that many of our social programs are extraordinarily hard to get. Disability is a classic case, a convoluted process that requires years and a good attorney to ever obtain. Of course, no one seems to care how you're supposed to support yourself if you can't work while you're fighting to get on disability. Yeah - fighting. That should tell you something right there. Our social programs are always a fight to obtain, a small declaration of war on the government that you must win if you plan to avail yourself of those programs.
And then once you win the fight, you realize that, not only are these programs designed poorly so that you cannot built yourself up while on them, they also provide only enough to keep you off the street, but you are still forced into destitution - unless you made a crapton of money before you became disabled, for instance, what you get per month wouldn't even equal a minimum wage job. There is no way you could live on your own on $800 per month. Other nations give you free houses and free cars if you end up disabled, but our system simply hands you permanent poverty through no fault of your own.
One must consider the history of poverty in relation to Christianity. In most European nations as well as in America there were poorhouses before there were social programs. If you were unemployed, if you were elderly and didn't have children to take care of you, or if you were disabled, you ended up in the poorhouse if you were not independently wealthy. Poorhouses were thoroughly miserable places to live and whether you were simply lazy or horribly disabled, it didn't matter. You were treated very poorly with harsh rules, forced labor, appalling living conditions, prison rations, and scorn from the staff. This was done on purpose because poorhouses were designed to be so miserable that people wouldn't want to stay there - getting a job would be preferable.
But what of the people who were too old, too sick, too disabled to work? Oh, well, the Christians had their own rationale for their poor treatment. You see, Christians then decided that if you were disabled or sick or dirt poor in your twilight years, that was YOUR fault. Somehow, in some way, you angered God and your disability or your loneliness is your punishment. You wouldn't be in the poorhouse if your morality was up to snuff, so if you were in one for a reason other than shirking work, it was because you are an immoral person. You did something - didn't matter what, didn't matter if there was proof - to get God riled enough to put you there.
If you think it's different today, it's not. Our social programs are still met with a lot of resistance and right-wing Christians are always looking for ways to cut funding. Just look at the irrational opposition to the Affordable Care Act. I mean, it's one thing to not want it, quite another to be so stupidly irrational that you're willing to destroy the country to prevent its implementation. But that's literally what we have.
Plus, our social programs are designed to mimic the poorhouses of old. Granted today you are afforded more freedom in the sense that you don't have to live in a big room with 100 other people, but the quality and the amount of help is not even at the subsistence level - just as it was in a poorhouse.
It is quite different in secular nations. If you want to know the real link between history and social programs, it has to do with attitudes coming out of WWII. I won't go into a long diatribe (because I already have), so I'll outline the basic theory:
European and Asian nations bore the brunt of the destruction. Cities were annihilated, civilians butchered, invading armies raped and pillaged their way through their conquests. There were genocides and holocausts, people by their tens of thousands starved to death every day. People burned their furniture to keep warm. The deprivation was astounding. What's more, they began to question the existence of God because - if there was a God, why didn't he do something about that horrible war?
America, of course, suffered NONE of that. The worst Americans had to deal with was rationing and long hours at work (which was actually good for the wallet since it got us out of the Great Depression). When the war was finally over, the other nations decided not to go back to the way things were and, understanding true deprivation, created very robust social programs. President Roosevelt was actually going to push a 2nd Bill of Rights that would have made things like health care and having a home actual rights, but alas he died and the idea died with him.
Given that the war lowered religiosity in those other nations quite dramatically and they have the best social programs while here the war did nothing to lower religiosity and our social programs are skeletal at best, well, if there isn't causation, there is definitely correlation between Christianity and social programs. But in the opposite way that you see it. Christians in this country believe that all assistance to the poor and disabled should come from charity instead of the government - but that's a foolish idea for reasons I won't get into here. Secular nations who aren't constantly paranoid of their own governments and who do not see the Bible as the highest law of the land have done MUCH better by way of their less fortunate than America ever has - and probably ever will.
<snip:
Shrina
And that, Daylux, is the testimony that fundamentalist christianity is giving to those who are lost. They see the literalist view of scripture as illogical, they see the christianity practiced as immoral, they see the attitudes exhibited as judgmental---in effect they see in fundamentalist christianity everything that Jesus fought against in His time on earth.
So if your kind of faith drives people from seeking God, then I want nothing to do with it. If your kind of faith is irrational in light of the scientific and historical evidence available to us today, then I want nothing to do with it. If your kind of faith puts your kind of christian on a pedestal above everyone else, regardless of whether or not they are believer, then I want nothing to do with it.
So how will you answer to God on judgment day when you discover everything you've said and believed has done nothing to bring anyone closer to Christ?
P.S. I've been a Christian for 51 years, have preached in dozens of churches, have personally led people to accept Christ as Savior---but I want NOTHING to do with fundamentalist christianity that has become a pawn for use by a political party.
I am pleased that, with 62 years of life on this planet under my belt - along with two marriages, many loves, two wonderful sons, dozens of jobs, several brushes with death and other stories that may be told one day - I have never lost the capacity for being amazed.
Pahahahaha, utter tripe. Please provide this astounding fact?
I'm also baffled at your astonishment for me not believing in Jesus. How about you do the five minutes of research and look up Science. It's crazy what you will find, but, crazy as it may be, it is all real. Unlike you mythical magic man.
You said he didn't exist. I merely pointed out that the vast majority of scholars agree he was a historical person, not that the vast majority thinks he's God. In other words, I was making fun of your wording and for potentially following the "Jesus historical Myth" line of thinking...The other Matts still laugh at thee..and they may or may not even be Christian
You said he didn't exist. I merely pointed out that the vast majority of scholars agree he was a historical person, not that the vast majority thinks he's God. In other words, I was making fun of your wording and for potentially following the "Jesus historical Myth" line of thinking...The other Matts still laugh at thee..and they may or may not even be Christian
You made yourself look foolish. Very foolish in fact. Attempting to appear anything else now is desperate.
I won't even bother asking you for evidence, as you'll ignore the point like most other religious nuts.
You assert Jesus existed! Fact
You assert Noah's Ark exists! Fact
I don't believe the CLAIM Jesus existed.
I don't believe the CLAIM Noahs Ark existed.
Now, I've proven THIS Ark isn't Noah's Ark, and I don't accept there will be another, anywhere! See comment 16 (Again).
The burden of proof, which you don't seem to have grasped the concept of is not even close to being on me. If I said I believed/know that Santa, Unicorns or other mythical creatures exist, the burden of proof would be on me to prove that, with evidence. Yet, there isn't paper on paper with evidence to claim they don't exist, is there?! You, see, it's not on those who don't accept to prove you wrong, it's for you to prove yourself right.
I don't accept God, no matter if it is yours or any of the other 3000, I don't accept the claim. It is therefore not for me to prove why I don't believe he exists, it's on you to prove he existed.
Do you understand this, or do I have to simply things down even further?
I'm taking a very central ground, and watching as you fall from your horse.
Also a nice passage for your mockery (How very Christian of you): “Scoffer” is the name of the arrogant, haughty man who acts with arrogant pride. (Proverbs 21:24)
Dear mocker,
It was you who said Jesus never existed. PROVE IT or keep quiet. You are making yourself look sophomoric.
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