Why is UpTown considered bad? (Chicago, Springfield: luxury, to live, law)

[ChiNaan]

Also:

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

straw man

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

Not just mentally ill, but criminals, drug abusers, sex offenders, etc. I lived in Uptown for eight years and had more than my fair share of negative encounters with the various characters. I don't think you can really appreciate the depth of the problem without living there for many years.

I was taking the now-Red line to Lawrence when I was in grade school in the early 80s. I have more than a solid appreciation of the problems, trust me.

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by ChiNaan

I think you're mostly making these people up in your head. Have you been studying Hipsterology 101 with Prof. Chet? Do their bicycles, thrift store clothes, and expensive beers p*ss you off, too?

I basically see people who don't want poor people in their neighborhoods, and people who don't mind poor people in their neighborhoods. If they're in the latter category, I don't really care if some of them think their neighborhood is a movie set. (I'd guess that to be a delusional 1% or so at most.)

There are some who don't mind poor people in their neighborhoods when they are young and single, but then as soon as they get hitched and have kids do a 180 reverse either hightail it to the burbs or a totally gentrified area, or who suddenly become a *lot* less tolerant.

I think this what Lookout Kid is complaining about.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by ChiNaan

I think you're mostly inventing these people. Have you been studying Hipsterology 101 with Chet? Do their bicycles, thrift store clothes, and expensive beers p*ss you off, too?

I basically see people who don't want poor people in their neighborhoods, and people who don't mind poor people in their neighborhoods. If they're in the latter category, I don't really care if some of them think their neighborhood is a movie set. (I'd guess that to be a delusional 1% or so at most.)

Hipster isn't really descriptive enough to capture the behavior I describe (though many "hipsters" are guilty of the behavior I describe). But I've been in Uptown long enough to see protests, counter protests, and many public debates. And while there are certainly many people who truly care about the plight of the poor and downtrodden who fight gentrification, there are many others who just hate a "boring" neighborhood full of middle class white people, and who romanticize urban troubles as some sort of virtue. Many of the casual observers who mourn the Uptown of old fit in to the latter category.

[ChiNaan]

Originally Posted by Chi-town Native

There are some who don't mind poor people in their neighborhoods when they are young and single, but then as soon as they get hitched and have kids do a 180 reverse either hightail it to the burbs or a totally gentrified area, or who suddenly become a *lot* less tolerant.

I agree with you completely there. Part of me dislikes hypocrisy of any kind, but part of me would rather see people be tolerant for part of their lives than none of their lives.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by ChiNaan

Also:

You were restating my argument in a way that was a weaker position, and then arguing against that position. That is a straw man.

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by ChiNaan

I hear what you're saying, but people have to live somewhere. You can argue that poor people don't have a right to housing, but you can't really argue that they don't have a right to exist. Where should they go? Other neighborhoods? Other cities? Shelters? Parks and viaducts?

I think what entails a "right" to exist is pretty much the $100,000 question. My thoughts are while health care isn't a right/entitlement the way free speech is, our country is stupid for not nationalizing it.

It would be a good investment based on sound economics and would alleviate a lot of the problems we're discussing. You'd be amazed how many people these days are thrust into poverty due to medical cost issues.

Also, what's good for Chicago ought to be good for Highland Park, Springfield, East St. Louis and everywhere in between.

If we are required to have affordable housing, provide mental health services, etc. that should be a state policy/program. Again, this would alleviate many problems - people move to Chicago in many cases as they can't afford to live where the increasing numbers of McJobs are located in the burbs.

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by ChiNaan

I agree with you completely there. Part of me dislikes hypocrisy of any kind, but part of me would rather see people be tolerate for part of their lives than none of their lives.

Good point, I agree 100%. It's progress.

[ChiNaan]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

You were restating my argument in a way that was a weaker position, and then arguing against that position. That is a straw man.

I wasn't, and it's not, but okay.

[Aleking]

5 years in and still waiting for my first negative encounter...maybe the next 3 years will be real bad