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Some people have had some pretty bad long term covid effects that may last the rest of their lives but there are also some who have the same issue with the vaccines. It's an individual experience which is why I won't tell anyone to get the vaccine. They should know how their body reacts to such things. And those who continue to push that all should be vaccinated are selfish and thinking only of themselves.
Some people have had some pretty bad long term covid effects that may last the rest of their lives but there are also some who have the same issue with the vaccines. It's an individual experience which is why I won't tell anyone to get the vaccine. They should know how their body reacts to such things. And those who continue to push that all should be vaccinated are selfish and thinking only of themselves.
Well said Mars. This should have never been a one way street, especially when it became known that the vaccine didn't prevent people from getting infected, but merely prevented severe reactions. It's very easy for people to behave responsibly whether they get the vaccine or not, and keeping distance is one of the biggest preventative measures one can take. Even with the pandemic essentially over, my contact with others is minimal and it's typically outdoors. You can pretty much get anything you want with a point and a click.
Well said Mars. This should have never been a one way street, especially when it became known that the vaccine didn't prevent people from getting infected, but merely prevented severe reactions. It's very easy for people to behave responsibly whether they get the vaccine or not, and keeping distance is one of the biggest preventative measures one can take. Even with the pandemic essentially over, my contact with others is minimal and it's typically outdoors. You can pretty much get anything you want with a point and a click.
I also practice distancing, not to the degree I did before but I'm still very aware of my surroundings and so far, so good.
It's a shame that so many who were vaccinated contracted the virus anyway. I think the idea - that was stated by our government leaders - that we wouldn't get sick if we were vaccinated was the one that was truly irresponsible. It gave people a false sense of security, which led to them relaxing their cautious behavior.
For the record, I'm not an anti-vaxer. I do believe in them but I don't like how this one was rolled out so quickly when most have to go through years of scrutiny and testing before being unleashed on the entire population.
And as much as I'd like to see this virus go away completely, I don't believe it will. It will continue to mutate into something that we'll just have to live with. Some will react with no symptoms, mild symptoms or severe symptoms. Much like people do with flu, pneumonia, meningitis, or any other severe communicable disease. If someone wants to live the rest of their life wearing a mask, more power to them. I won't do it.
I also practice distancing, not to the degree I did before but I'm still very aware of my surroundings and so far, so good.
It's a shame that so many who were vaccinated contracted the virus anyway. I think the idea - that was stated by our government leaders - that we wouldn't get sick if we were vaccinated was the one that was truly irresponsible. It gave people a false sense of security, which led to them relaxing their cautious behavior.
For the record, I'm not an anti-vaxer. I do believe in them but I don't like how this one was rolled out so quickly when most have to go through years of scrutiny and testing before being unleashed on the entire population.
And as much as I'd like to see this virus go away completely, I don't believe it will. It will continue to mutate into something that we'll just have to live with. Some will react with no symptoms, mild symptoms or severe symptoms. Much like people do with flu, pneumonia, meningitis, or any other severe communicable disease. If someone wants to live the rest of their life wearing a mask, more power to them. I won't do it.
Agree. I personally lost all faith in Fauci when he said that vaccinated individuals could hang out with other vaccinated individuals and pull back on some of the stringent health measures. My wife's company went back to work with a building that was 100% vaccinated and they were getting at least 2 cases a week (that was the first sign I knew that all was not right). I thought to myself...this guy is supposed to be an infectious disease expert and this is the advice he gives. Not to mention, how in the world could an infectious disease expert not know that a virus mutates?!
I'm good with anyone that wants to wear a mask for the rest of their life (that's there business). But like you, I won't be one of them.
And for the record, that label of anti-vaxer is just something people do to divide others. The vast majority don't care if someone wants to get a vaccine or wear a mask. People are pro-choice....not anti-vaxer or anti-mask.
1) vaccinations don't prevent infection
2) studies have been mixed if they reduce Long COVID following breakthrough infection. Some show modest reduction, others none
3) Vaccines can cause Long COVID too (https://www.science.org/content/arti...covid-symptoms) - brain fog, blood pressure, headaches
I'd say from this, if we define Long COVID from the virus and the vaccines as the same thing, a vaccinated individual is more likely to get it than an unvaccinated.
Of course absolute risk is never done in these studies since Long COVID per definition needs to follow COVID infection. A slight of hand.
I think I need to call you beachSnake. The latest reasons are 2 of those 3 points are false and deliberately misleading, respectively. It's strongly established that Long-Covid happens most easily, by a large margin, to an unvaccinated individual.
I think we have a paradox. I don't know of any vaccine that has no (or maybe even negative) efficacy in regards to infection, but mitigates severe disease. I mean, you have vaccines like the vaccines for Tetanus, which are targeting the toxins the bacteria produce and not the bacteria, but those aside.
You agree with me this is a paradox? Do you have any scientific explanations for possible immunological mechanisms for this? I have a few guesses, want to hear what yours are.
There is no paradox, since the covid vaccines do not nave "no (or maybe even negative) efficacy" in regards to infection.
"Together, the findings show that T cells induced by vaccines continue to recognize Omicron. Despite reduced antibody responses against the variants, T cells serve as a second line of defense. This may help to explain why Omicron infections, while easily spread, are less likely to lead to severe disease in fully vaccinated people."
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachGecko
Huh, care to elaborate? Why wouldn't they cause problems down the road? They permanently alter your immune system. Your immune system is not just responsible for keeping out pathogens, but it regulates all cells in your body, including cancerous cells.
Right now in your body, some cells are turning cancerous but being identified and killed right away by NK and CD8+ Tcells, and other parts of your immune system. It's only when your immune system hiccups, the cancerous cells grow beyond a critical mass where they begin to suppress your immune system from attacking them (current strategies for combatting cancer are all around stimulating your immune system to attack them but so far this can lead to nasty autoimmune disorders so it's not perfect).
There is no reason to suspect that the covid vaccines will increase the risk of cancer:
"So no, *if* this current paper's conclusions are correct, and *if* this NHEJ inhibition via the Spike protein really is operating for a time after someone has been vaccinated - both of these need further work, for sure - I still don't see this as a cancer risk. As mentioned before, the authors of the paper didn't even bother to note this possibility either. To me, this is a nonissue that's been whipped up by people who either don't appreciate the biology involved, or perhaps do appreciate it and don't care. Just so long as worries are raised about vaccines - any weapon to hand."
Infection with the virus is associated with autoimmunity:
"Those who recover from even mild cases of COVID-19 often possess elevated autoantibodies, proteins that may attack the body’s own tissues, a new study suggests."
"The lone strong safety signal of immune thrombocytopaenia notwithstanding, this study attests to the safety of the COVID-19 vaccine where autoimmune conditions are concerned. Through quantifying the risk of autoimmune disorders associated with COVID-19 vaccination, this study contributes to a growing body of evidence supporting the safety of such vaccines."
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachGecko
This is actually incorrect. There have been observational studies linking vaccines to many effects (mostly autoimmune) years down the road like diabetes. There was a crude RCT done in Guinea-Bissau showing increased mortality in kids following DPT vaccination. What they found was a) while the vaccines protected them against diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis it made them more likely to die of other diseases compared to unvaccinated kids, so in fact the vaccinated kids had mortality rates.
The problem with studying effects of vaccines down the road is always complicated by the many confounding factors that accumulate. And in this country, since almost all kids get the same vaccinations, there is no control group.
So a lot of the studies are observational and retrospective and use cohorts, many times against various generations, which always leads the study open to criticisms.
And also I hate that phrase: extensive studies haven't found.
1. There have not been extensive studies on this period due to the problems I described
2. Haven't found is more like some studies have found, but have been ignored
3. Just because you don't find something, doesn't mean it's not happening. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
And no, while these vaccines don't seem to have any effect on SARS-CoV-2, at least after 8 weeks, that doesn't mean their effects are gone. On the contrary, you have created memory B-cells from these vaccines that will reside in your bone marrow until you die. The lack of efficacy of these vaccines means the antibodies they're generating are not working, if these vaccines are preventing severe disease, it's not from the Abs they produce but from some other mechanism. But these antibodies are still there, and will be produced by these memory B-cells at some concentrations for the rest of your life.
I can go on and on about this! But, while not everyone will make antibodies for the RBD of the (S)pike protein due to genetic differences in their HLA genes, for the unlucky few who do, their antibodies will have paratopes that resemble ACE2 as the RBD binds to ACE2, for the paratope of the Ab to bind to RBD of S, it also will need to look like ACE2.
This will influence and either up-regulate or down-regulate the renin–angiotensin–aldosterone system for the rest of their lives. Their body will be forced to make anti-antibodies which can have anti-idiotype effects, and manifest in CVD. This is one of the many mechanisms.
The Guinea Bissau "study" was done with data kept on paper cards, some of which were destroyed by rodents. It found an increased number of deaths, but for those deaths the authors of the study did not know the actual cause. Garbage in, garbage out.
It is not true that "these vaccines don't seem to have any effect on SARS-CoV-2, at least after 8 weeks". Effectiveness wanes but does not completely disappear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachGecko
But
1) vaccinations don't prevent infection
2) studies have been mixed if they reduce Long COVID following breakthrough infection. Some show modest reduction, others none
3) Vaccines can cause Long COVID too (https://www.science.org/content/arti...covid-symptoms) - brain fog, blood pressure, headaches
I'd say from this, if we define Long COVID from the virus and the vaccines as the same thing, a vaccinated individual is more likely to get it than an unvaccinated.
Of course absolute risk is never done in these studies since Long COVID per definition needs to follow COVID infection. A slight of hand.
Vaccines do not completely eliminate infections, but they do reduce them, especially after boosters.
Please explain how you can conclude that a vaccinated person is more likely to get long covid than an unvaccinated person. Note that your link says "rare cases" after vaccination.
I also practice distancing, not to the degree I did before but I'm still very aware of my surroundings and so far, so good.
It's a shame that so many who were vaccinated contracted the virus anyway. I think the idea - that was stated by our government leaders - that we wouldn't get sick if we were vaccinated was the one that was truly irresponsible. It gave people a false sense of security, which led to them relaxing their cautious behavior.
For the record, I'm not an anti-vaxer. I do believe in them but I don't like how this one was rolled out so quickly when most have to go through years of scrutiny and testing before being unleashed on the entire population.
And as much as I'd like to see this virus go away completely, I don't believe it will. It will continue to mutate into something that we'll just have to live with. Some will react with no symptoms, mild symptoms or severe symptoms. Much like people do with flu, pneumonia, meningitis, or any other severe communicable disease. If someone wants to live the rest of their life wearing a mask, more power to them. I won't do it.
The incidence of Covid-19 per week probably is more than the others combined. It would be completely unacceptable if meningitis were a pandemic. It's ridiculous that basic protective measures are being undermined.
The incidence of Covid-19 per week probably is more than the others combined. It would be completely unacceptable if meningitis were a pandemic. It's ridiculous that basic protective measures are being undermined.
No one is undermining basic protective measures. Practice them, do them but don't think one size fits all when it comes to vaccinations. There's been multiple testimonies made by people who took the vaccine and got horribly sick. Even one of our members here.
It's your constant insistence that everyone be vaccinated in order to kill this virus and all I said was the virus will never go away and people should take care of themselves the best way they know how. Not by living under the threat of government that if you don't get the injection, you'll lose your livelihood. That stunt perpetrated by the government may have just cost a lot of political supporters (of that ridiculous mandate) their seats in the upcoming election. You want the shot? Take the shot. I don't care, just stop insisting that it will benefit everyone because it won't.
1) I don't care about "testimonies." That is not science. From what I've heard, even in children, the risk of a severe reaction to the vaccine is much lower than the risk from the virus itself.
2) Certainly since last summer, I haven't said "get vaccinated to kill the virus." Get vaccinated to be temporarily less likely to get sick, to not get particularly sick if infection does happen, to be maybe be a little less contagious if sick, and to not burden the healthcare system and employers (due to long absence or death).
3) Protections being undermined relate mostly to masking and social distancing, assuming vaccination itself isn't being seriously undermined.
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