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GGC is being hit harder because it is growing faster than most. Just recently has that rate tapered a bit. I'm not sure if we'll see more mergers as the BOR needs to assess if this mergers idea of theirs is working as planned, namely saving money. Many of these mergers are really awkward in terms of distance between campuses and divergent missions. Plus, at least some of these mergers seemed to have been timed with a president retiring.
Some, but the BOR had been focused on academic facilities leaving the research schools to fund their own. Sometimes they have to slip in classroom space to get the funding. GSU might have struck a deal for the Natural Science Center to go fully academic and Petit pure research because I remember NSC to be mostly research years ago.
And what school is positioned well to become a health and tech power spot? Not Georgia Southern. Atlanta is the major center and I don't see what another research school brings other than to dilute BOR funds. A school like KSU serves a need as focusing on educating students. That is a legitimate need. Even a non-research SPSU has its place if it provides more technical/practical engineers rather than the GT kids with their head wrapped around the theory but not what's actually done in the workshop.
Mathman,
You hit the nail on the head in delineating the difference between SPSU engineers and GT engineers. GT is to a great extent a theorectical research institution that also trains engineers and scietists. SPSU primarily teaches students in the areas of technology, applied engineering, and the primary sciences. SPSU teaches plenty of theory and has its share of registered professional engineers to back that up.
An example of theoretical research vs. applied engineering is this: the laser was invented by an MIT professor, as I recall. He developed the concept, successfully completed the research to prove his theory, and told the world here is a new tool to aid mankind.
At that point the engineers who tie theory to practical application took the laser principle and develped it for use in measurement, medicine, manufacturing, and a host of other uses. These engineers working for many varied companies and industries adapted the principle of the laser to their particular applications. They developed the related components, systems, and equipment for productive uses.
That being said, SPSU does have a research component furthering SPSU's mission and objectives.
GGC is being hit harder because it is growing faster than most. Just recently has that rate tapered a bit. I'm not sure if we'll see more mergers as the BOR needs to assess if this mergers idea of theirs is working as planned, namely saving money. Many of these mergers are really awkward in terms of distance between campuses and divergent missions. Plus, at least some of these mergers seemed to have been timed with a president retiring.
Some, but the BOR had been focused on academic facilities leaving the research schools to fund their own. Sometimes they have to slip in classroom space to get the funding. GSU might have struck a deal for the Natural Science Center to go fully academic and Petit pure research because I remember NSC to be mostly research years ago.
And what school is positioned well to become a health and tech power spot? Not Georgia Southern. Atlanta is the major center and I don't see what another research school brings other than to dilute BOR funds. A school like KSU serves a need as focusing on educating students. That is a legitimate need. Even a non-research SPSU has its place if it provides more technical/practical engineers rather than the GT kids with their head wrapped around the theory but not what's actually done in the workshop.
Many mergers have resulted from the simple fact that there are too many institutions in the USG. I would be interested in seeing a study done of efficiency(job placement, graduation rates and ROI) across some of these smaller institutions. Some of these schools are a mess!
Geographically, many of the mergers have made sense. It's the institutional goals of the various schools that has made mergers tricky. Understand that consolidations and mergers are not a thing carried out when all is well. We haven't talked about it much here, but these schools were suffering academically and financially. They were bleeding money and a waste of BOR funds and student time and dollars. That was another reason for merger. Other mergers were just operational moves. GRU created the fourth comprehensive research university in the state. UNG created an access school for GSC students. Some mergers helped with research and economic goals. Skidaway Institute's handing over to UGA made perfect sense and was unanimously supported by Savannah State and GT(both of who do research at Skidaway). I'd say it makes sense to give an oceanography institute to the sea-grant research university of the state. Especially a school trying to bolster its research image and expenditure.
BOR has had to focus on academic facilities because of the up tick in enrollment - which was a result of HOPE. There are more students. We need more classrooms and libraries. ChefRamsey has been complaining that GSU invests too much in student life. Well, GSU has the second highest enrollment in the state with the smallest and comparatively poorly funded campus in the state. There is a need for facilities.
It's all interconnected, nothing operates independently in education. By in large, there has been support for research in the recent years from the Regents and Governor. UGA's new 50 million Terry College learning center is being funded entirely from private donations, while the veterinary medicine learning center and Riverbend research park are being supported by the state funds(which by the way, isn't much for any of these schools).
I know it's really easy to blame the politicians and bureaucrats for everything that goes wrong in the USG, but it isn't always the case, just mostly the case. They're in a pretty sticky situation.
Regarding institutions poised to bring STEM jobs, power and people to Georgia. There are only four institutions that are capable of doing that. Our research universities" UGA and Georgia Tech. Georgia State and Georgia Regents University.
We may not be Texas or California, but we've got some pretty hefty guns. I predict in the coming years, all four schools will continue their upward trend in research. I think you will find yourself questioning the notion of KSU/GA Southern not reaching research university status.
Many mergers have resulted from the simple fact that there are too many institutions in the USG. I would be interested in seeing a study done of efficiency(job placement, graduation rates and ROI) across some of these smaller institutions. Some of these schools are a mess!
Geographically, many of the mergers have made sense. It's the institutional goals of the various schools that has made mergers tricky. Understand that consolidations and mergers are not a thing carried out when all is well. We haven't talked about it much here, but these schools were suffering academically and financially. They were bleeding money and a waste of BOR funds and student time and dollars. That was another reason for merger. Other mergers were just operational moves. GRU created the fourth comprehensive research university in the state. UNG created an access school for GSC students. Some mergers helped with research and economic goals. Skidaway Institute's handing over to UGA made perfect sense and was unanimously supported by Savannah State and GT(both of who do research at Skidaway). I'd say it makes sense to give an oceanography institute to the sea-grant research university of the state. Especially a school trying to bolster its research image and expenditure.
BOR has had to focus on academic facilities because of the up tick in enrollment - which was a result of HOPE. There are more students. We need more classrooms and libraries. ChefRamsey has been complaining that GSU invests too much in student life. Well, GSU has the second highest enrollment in the state with the smallest and comparatively poorly funded campus in the state. There is a need for facilities.
It's all interconnected, nothing operates independently in education. By in large, there has been support for research in the recent years from the Regents and Governor. UGA's new 50 million Terry College learning center is being funded entirely from private donations, while the veterinary medicine learning center and Riverbend research park are being supported by the state funds(which by the way, isn't much for any of these schools).
I know it's really easy to blame the politicians and bureaucrats for everything that goes wrong in the USG, but it isn't always the case, just mostly the case. They're in a pretty sticky situation.
Regarding institutions poised to bring STEM jobs, power and people to Georgia. There are only four institutions that are capable of doing that. Our research universities" UGA and Georgia Tech. Georgia State and Georgia Regents University.
We may not be Texas or California, but we've got some pretty hefty guns. I predict in the coming years, all four schools will continue their upward trend in research. I think you will find yourself questioning the notion of KSU/GA Southern not reaching research university status.
Dichlor,
You are correct in that some mergers being beneficial. The NGCSU and GSC integration is witness to this. Both schools will benefit with this as well as the northeaast Georgia region.
It's interesting that you think only the four research universities are capable of implementing a STEM program. SPSU is part of the state STEM initiative. The school has an education option with a teaching certificate in its math, physics, biology, and chemistry degree programs. Many SPSU grads have been in the teaching profession since the school's inception. This includes teaching at the high school, college, and university levels.
Incidently, the ROI the state receives from SPSU probably is one of the highest in the USG. An SPSU merger with KSU or GA State would water down this benefit to the state and the students. SPSU no doubt would be adversely affected academically as well.
Give it a rest. SPSU has a 79% acceptance rate. 37% graduate in 6 years. 75% return for sophomore year. An average student age of 24. 28% are part-time students. 23% of the population was in the bottom half of the class. A 3.28 average GPA. SPSU isn't all that different from GSU/KSU except in the considerably better SAT score(mostly engineering majors + wannabe Tech students = higher average GPA). https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/c...ate-university
I know at least 20 people at SPSU RIGHT NOW. They're all using it as a back up to Georgia Tech and will transfer. Anyone I know who has ever applied(across multiple cycles) have used it as a back up school to Tech. SPSU is really ineffective as a university their ROI is crap. That's why they were and are on the map for consolidation. SPSU's budget is an ant compared to other USG schools. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just saying it like it is.
SPSU had 200 full-time instructional professors in 2010. KSU had 730. West GA had 448. GCSU had 316. ASU had 255. Straight from SPSU's factbook. In 2010, SPSU's operational expenses category said SPSU spent 201,150 on research. 1% of their 2010 budget.
All this about actual hands-on crap..who cares? Mechanic v engineer. Construction worker v architect. Go practice hands-on all you want. Theorists are the ones inventing. SPSU grads don't compare.
Found some interesting info about GA Southern becoming a research university.
in 2005 GA Southern was named a doctoral/research university by the Carnegie Foundation. 2.4% of the budget was for research(5.4 million). In 2010 1.7% of the budget was for research. in 2012, 2.4% of the budget was for research.
GA Southern is going to become a research university. I'm calling it.
SPSU had 200 full-time instructional professors in 2010. KSU had 730. West GA had 448. GCSU had 316. ASU had 255.
That's because they have only 6,000 students. Percentagewise, they've been growing faster than the other USG schools.
Quote:
All this about actual hands-on crap..who cares? Mechanic v engineer. Construction worker v architect. Go practice hands-on all you want. Theorists are the ones inventing. SPSU grads don't compare.
But technicians are important too. GT is phasing out their Building Construction program at the Undergraduate level so SPSU is it.
Quote:
Found some interesting info about GA Southern becoming a research university.
in 2005 GA Southern was named a doctoral/research university by the Carnegie Foundation. 2.4% of the budget was for research(5.4 million). In 2010 1.7% of the budget was for research. in 2012, 2.4% of the budget was for research.
GA Southern is going to become a research university. I'm calling it.
That's because they graduate the appropriate number of PhDs. Not too hard to do. It just means you can enroll in one of their PhD programs and work on your thesis. A school engaged in sponsored research which attracts PhD candidates because it includes funding as well as a research topic is more in line of what a research university is. Attracting and holding research faculty will be a challenge for Ga Southern.
That's because they graduate the appropriate number of PhDs. Not too hard to do. It just means you can enroll in one of their PhD programs and work on your thesis. A school engaged in sponsored research which attracts PhD candidates because it includes funding as well as a research topic is more in line of what a research university is. Attracting and holding research faculty will be a challenge for Ga Southern.
Now we're getting somewhere. Ok. Why?
The construction analogy was an example. Burger flippers are important. I don't compare them to the food scientists at Oscar Mayers. I also liked how you dodged my other points. I'm beginning to think SPSU really does need to be consolidated.
Give it a rest. SPSU has a 79% acceptance rate. 37% graduate in 6 years. 75% return for sophomore year. An average student age of 24. 28% are part-time students. 23% of the population was in the bottom half of the class. A 3.28 average GPA. SPSU isn't all that different from GSU/KSU except in the considerably better SAT score(mostly engineering majors + wannabe Tech students = higher average GPA). https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/c...ate-university
I know at least 20 people at SPSU RIGHT NOW. They're all using it as a back up to Georgia Tech and will transfer. Anyone I know who has ever applied(across multiple cycles) have used it as a back up school to Tech. SPSU is really ineffective as a university their ROI is crap. That's why they were and are on the map for consolidation. SPSU's budget is an ant compared to other USG schools. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just saying it like it is.
SPSU had 200 full-time instructional professors in 2010. KSU had 730. West GA had 448. GCSU had 316. ASU had 255. Straight from SPSU's factbook. In 2010, SPSU's operational expenses category said SPSU spent 201,150 on research. 1% of their 2010 budget.
All this about actual hands-on crap..who cares? Mechanic v engineer. Construction worker v architect. Go practice hands-on all you want. Theorists are the ones inventing. SPSU grads don't compare.
Found some interesting info about GA Southern becoming a research university.
in 2005 GA Southern was named a doctoral/research university by the Carnegie Foundation. 2.4% of the budget was for research(5.4 million). In 2010 1.7% of the budget was for research. in 2012, 2.4% of the budget was for research.
GA Southern is going to become a research university. I'm calling it.
Chef,
Your diatribe is amusing.
The statistics and dialog you give in your first paragraph are somewhat less than coherent. SPSU does have a low graduation rate, granted. Beginning freshmen have been told this in orientation. They have been told, "Look to the person on your left, then to the person on your right. Only one of you will graduate" If all college graduates had a 3.9 GPA and the school had very high graduation rates there could be a hint of grade inflation in there somewhere. Or the school could have a cupcake curriculum. Or both.
From gradeinflation.com:
THE EAST
1. Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. Engineering and science based schools dominate the Sweet Sixteen of Tough A's. Their workloads are higher and their grades are lower than national averages. Rensselaer fits right in with a high quality student body and an average GPA about 0.25 below typical private schools of its caliber.
2. Princeton University.
3. Boston University.
4. MIT.
THE SOUTH
1. Virginia Commonwealth University.
2. Hampden-Sydney College.
3. Southern Polytechnic State. Another hard-nosed science and engineering school. Its state rival Georgia Tech is no piece of cake either, but SPSU gets the nod for a Sweet Sixteen seed this year.
4. Roanoke College
5 Auburn University. Another Tiger in this year's Sweet Sixteen. Eat your hearts out 'Bama; Auburn is just a tougher place to earn an A.
As to SPSU's ROI worth being low, upon what do you base your statement? Do you know what SPSU's annual budget is? Do you know the average starting salaries for graduates? What percentage of graduates remain in Georgia? These factors have to be in an equation to determine ROI. Do you know these factors for other state schools?
Of course SPSU's budget is relatively small. It's a relatively small school. The same holds true for the number of faculty members. Most people have never heard of some of the top engineering schools in the US because they are so small. Harvey Mudd College, Olin College of Engineering, Cooper Union, etc. Size and fame don't always equate to quality.
Perhaps Georgia Southern should become a research university. SPSU's mission is primarily to teach and use research as an adjunct to that end.
Perhaps you should consider getting a degree or two from any engineering school, even getting your PE should you so desire. Then work in industry or for yourself for ten to fifteen years and get back on this forum. Perhaps then you will be enlightened.
Last edited by consultingengineer; 02-11-2013 at 10:40 PM..
I am hated by the Dean of Admissions from SPSU. I digress.
Let's get back to the real topic of GA Southern's future and how it will affect other schools.
One last thing consultant, SPSU's merger would be a good thing for SPSU, not a bad thing. All SPSU's fancy and magical programs that are far better than Georgia Tech and MIT will be benefited by being apart of a larger university. The money saved will be funneled back into the school and school system.
I am hated by the Dean of Admissions from SPSU. I digress.
Let's get back to the real topic of GA Southern's future and how it will affect other schools.
One last thing consultant, SPSU's merger would be a good thing for SPSU, not a bad thing. All SPSU's fancy and magical programs that are far better than Georgia Tech and MIT will be benefited by being apart of a larger university. The money saved will be funneled back into the school and school system.
Chef,
SPSU was founded and stayed under the auspices of a large university for decades. From 1948 until 1980 SPSU was part of GT. Under GT's leadership SPSU had minimal growth for a number of reasons. Since the two schools separated, SPSU has had notable growth in programs and facilities. The union didn't work under GT's watch and probably wouldn't work well in any merger situation. Been there, did that.
I don't think you will find anything in my postings that makes a blanket statement about SPSU being better than GT or MIT.
Some additional points from your previous posting- You criticize SPSU's lower average GPA's, yet you admit the school has higher SAT scores than other state universities. Wouldn't the logical reason for this be the curriculum at SPSU is more rigorous than those of its liberal arts counterparts, KSU, GSU, AAU, et.al? This fact, along with a higher workload in the sciences and engineering, explains why it takes longer to graduate from SPSU. In addition, SPSU has a considerable night school offering. Why would a student's age be part of your argument? SPSU has a large number of working part time students. Also, the school attracts a large number of veterans, who also tend to be older.
From your strong critique, it's assumed you have some less than stellar vested interest in SPSU. If you have a personal gripe with the school, just speak up about it.
Again, if you don't have direct experience in engineering or with SPSU in some way, you would be well served to research what you are talking about.
Last edited by consultingengineer; 02-12-2013 at 12:56 PM..
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Spsu
